Hill Cumorah DVD Here
Do you think a Prophet or Apostle would ever use the word FACT or PROOF or EXACT or DEFINATELY; whether in a daily conversation or as a revelation unless he believed it was indeed TRUE?
Jonathan Neville said, “Most members of the Church still believe the Hill Cumorah is in New York, a few miles from Palmyra.
Church leaders have consistently taught this for over 160 years. No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve has ever taught Cumorah was anywhere other than New York. New discoveries in Church history validate this teaching.
However, some intellectuals in the Church—including faculty at BYU and CES—promote the theory that the Book of Mormon took place in Central America (Mesoamerica). This theory teaches that there are “two Cumorah’s.” They admit that Joseph Smith got the plates from the hill in New York (one Cumorah), but they rationalize that New York is too far from Central America (Mesoamerica) to be the scene of the final battles of the Jaredites and the Nephites. They also claim Mormon’s depository (Mormon 6:6) is somewhere in Mexico.
These intellectuals are teaching their students that the prophets and apostles are wrong about the New York Cumorah.
Because these intellectuals have trained thousands of LDS students at BYU and CES, their ideas have permeated the Church. The “two-Cumorahs” theory is on display every time you see a depiction of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. This theory has caused confusion among members and investigators. But the teachings of the prophets are clear and consistent.
In Letter VII (July 1835) President Cowdery described the Hill Cumorah in New York. He explained that “at about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former” and declares it was a “fact that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.” He emphasized that “in this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites.” “This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah; by it, or around it, pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tent… The opposing army were to the west, and in this same valley, and near by.” He also explained that Mormon’s depository of Nephite records (Mormon 6:6) was in the same hill.” Joseph Smith Papers, here. Jonathan Neville http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/
Book of Mormon Central Know-Whys
It is important to BOMC to establish when Moroni or Joseph called the hill in New York “Cumorah.” They say it wasn’t before the mid-1830’s or in 1842. They want to make room in their narrative that Cumorah could be a hill in NY and one in Mexico not necessarily by the name of Cumorah. Like in the Church Publication “Saints” they do not ever call it Cumorah, but simply they call it, “hill” or “the hill.” Heartland shows below that the name was used several times before BOMC claims and show it is the one and same hill where Joseph received the plates from Moroni and it is the same place that the final battles happened for both the Jaredites and the Nephites.
According to BOMC
The First Time the Word Cumorah was Mentioned.
“There is “no historical evidence that Moroni called the hill ‘Cumorah’ in 1823” during his first encounter with the Prophet Joseph Smith. The name Cumorah came into “common circulation [amongst Latter-day Saints] no earlier than the mid-1830s.”2…
“As far as can be determined, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself only associated the hill in New York with the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon towards the end of his life. In an 1842 epistle the Prophet spoke of hearing “Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed” (Doctrine and Covenants 128:20).7 Before then, Joseph left the name of the New York hill where Moroni gave him the plates unnamed in his accounts of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.8” Post contributed by BMC Team November 29, 2018 KnoWhy #489
According to Heartland
The First Times the Word Cumorah was Mentioned.
1- Early 1827– Joseph Smith (quoted by his mother Lucy Mack Smith)
“Stop, father, Stop.” said Joseph, “it was the angel of the Lord— as I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel of the Lord met me and said, that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; that the time had come for the record to <be> brought forth; and, that I must be up and doing, and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do: but, Father,’ continued he, ‘give yourself no uneasiness concerning the reprimand that I have received; for I now know the course that I am to pursue; so all will be well.”
It was also made known to him at this interview, that he should make another effort to obtain the plates on the 22d. of the following September; But this he did not mention to us at that time.”
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845/111
2. [Moroni, after telling Joseph about the record, said] “but you cannot get it until you learn to keep the commandments of God For it is not to get gain. But it is to bring forth that light and intelligence which has been long lost in the Earth.
Now Joseph beware or when you go to get the plates your mind will be filled with darkness and all manner of evil will rush into your mind. To prevent you from keeping the commandments of God that you may not succeed in doing his work and you must tell your father of this for he will believe every word you say.
The record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place. Remove the grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars of cement— then the angel left him.”
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/41
3- April 8, 1831 Oliver Cowdery’s Speech to the Delaware Indians about the Book of Mormon. Oliver Cowdery (quoted by Parley P. Pratt) during the mission to the Lamanites (D&C 28, 30 and 32).
“This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County.
“In that neighborhood there lived a young man named Joseph Smith, who prayed to the Great Spirit much, in order that he might know the truth; and the Great Spirit sent an angel to him, and told him where this Book was hid by Moroni; and commanded him to go and get it. He accordingly went to the place, and dug in the earth, and found the Book written on golden plates.
“But it was written in the language of the forefathers of the red man; therefore this young man, being a pale face, could not understand it; but the angel told him and showed him, and gave him knowledge of the language, and how to interpret the Book. So he interpreted it into the language of the pale faces, and wrote it on paper, and caused it to be printed, and published thousands of copies of among them; and then sent us to the red men to bring some copies of it to them, and to tell them this news. So we have now come from him, and here is a copy of the Book, which we now present to our red friend, the chief of the Delawares, and which we hope he will cause to be read and known among his tribe; it will do them good.”
We then presented him with a Book of Mormon.
There was a pause in the council, and some conversation in their own tongue, after which the chief made the following reply: “We feel truly thankful to our white friends who have come so far, and been at such pains to tell us good news, and especially this new news concerning the Book of our forefathers; it makes us glad in here”—placing his hand on his heart.
Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44896/44896-h/44896-h.htm
4- April 8, 1831 Oliver Cowdery’s Speech to the Delaware Indians about the Book of Mormon.
Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter dated April 8, 1831, from Jackson County, Missouri, to the Saints in Kirtland. He described some of the events of the mission to the Lamanites.
I think everyone agrees that “early” members of the Church believed the American Indians in the U.S. and its territories were Lamanites. Here, Oliver refers to the Delaware Indians as the “deleware Nation of Lamanites.”
That fits pretty well with what the Lord said in D&C 28, 30 and 32.
Below is the full Quote
“Aged Chief and Venerable Council of the Delaware nation; we are glad of this opportunity to address you as our red brethren and friends. We have travelled a long distance from towards the rising sun to bring you glad news: we have travelled the wilderness, crossed the deep and wide rivers, and waded in the deep snows, and in the face of the storms of winter, to communicate to you great knowledge which has lately come to our ears and hearts and which will do the red man good as well as the pale face. Once the red men were many; they occupied the country from sea to sea—from the rising to the setting sun; the whole land was theirs; the Great Spirit gave it to them, and no pale faces dwelt among them. Thousands of moons ago, when the red men’s forefathers dwelt in peace and possessed this whole land, the Great Spirit talked with them, and revealed His law and His will, and much knowledge to their wise men and prophets. This they wrote in a Book; together with their history, and the things which should befall their children in the latter days. “This Book was written on plates of gold, and handed down from father to son for many ages and generations. “It was then that the people prospered, and were strong and mighty; they cultivated the earth; built buildings and cities, and abounded in all good things, as the pale faces now do. “But they became wicked: they killed one another and shed much blood; they killed their prophets and wise men, and sought to destroy the Hook. The (heat Spirit became angry, and would speak to them no more; they had no more good and wise dreams ; no more visions ; no more angels sent among them by the Great Spirit ; and the Lord commanded Mormon and Moroni, their last wise men and prophets, to hide the Book in the earth, that it might be preserved in safety, and be found and made known in the latter day to the pale faces who should possess the land ; that they might again make it known to the red man ; in order to restore them to the knowledge of the will of the Great Spirit and to His favor. And if the red man would then receive this Book and learn the things written in it, and do according thereunto, they should be restored to all their rights and privileges; should cease to fight and kill one another; should become one people; cultivate the earth in peace, in common with the pale faces, who were willing to believe and obey the same book, and be good men and live in peace. This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which lull is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County. “In that neighborhood there lived a young man named Joseph Smith, who prayed to the Great Spirit much, in order that he might know the truth ; and the Great Spirit sent an angel to him, and told him where this Book was hid by Moroni; and commanded him to go and get it. He accordingly Went to the place, and dug in the earth, and found the Book written on golden plates. But it was written in the language of the forefathers of the red man; therefore this young man, being a pale face, could not understand it; but the angel told him and showed him, and gave him knowledge of the language, and how to interpret the Book…
5- First formal Church History, 1834-1835– Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith wrote a series of essays, published as letters, about early Church history, including the restoration of the Priesthood, the visit of Moroni, and Joseph’s recovery of the plates. Letters I and II were published in The Messenger and Advocate in Kirtland, Ohio, in October and November 1834. An excerpt from Letter I was canonized in the Pearl of Great Price as a note to Joseph Smith-History. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/1#full-transcript
Oliver Cowdery, “Letter VII,” July 1835
By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this vally fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—
Oliver Cowdery, “Letter VIII,” October 1835
- I have now given sufficent on the subject of the hill Cumorah—it has a singular and imposing appearance for that country, and must ex[c]ite the
curiositycurious enquiry of every lover of the book of Mormon: - You will have woundered, perhaps, that the mind of our brother should be occupied with the thoughts of the goods of this world, at the time of arriving at Cumorah, on the morning of the 22nd of September, 1823, after having been rapt in the visions of heaven during the night, and also seeing and hearing in open day; but the mind of man is easily turned, if it is not held by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and you will remember that I have said that two invisible powers were operating upon his mind during his walk from his residence to Chumorah, and that the one urging the certainty of wealth and ease in this life,
- You will remember that I said, two invisible powers were operating upon the mind of our brother while going to Cumorah. In this, then, I discover wisdom in the dealings of the Lord: it was impossible for any man to translate the book of Mormon by the gift of God, and endure the afflictions, and [p. 98] temptations, and devices133 of satan, without being overthrown unless he had been previously benefited with a certain round of experience:
- To W[illiam] W. Phelps
“Soon after this visit to Cumorah, a gentleman from the south part of the State, (Chenango County,) employed our brother as a common laborer, and accordingly he visited that section of <the> country;…
As ever your brother in the Lord Jesus” Oliver Cowdery
Blog about Leaders saying Cumorah in NY is a fact: Prophets and Apostles Know it as Fact
THREE OPINIONS ON NEUTRALITY
Why Geography Matters by Rian Nelson
“I think there is importance with the Brethren being neutral on Geography, Evolution and other difficult issues. They want us to gain our own witness to secondary information. They have given us sound doctrine and I try hard every day to live my religion.
I believe the Land of Promise spoken of in the Book of Mormon is the United States of America. The Constitution was created by the Lord, that Adam and Eve were placed on this same land and the New Jerusalem will be on this same land. No need for me to check out Mesoamerica anymore as I did for 40 years.
Just like Evolution. I don’t believe we came from an ape and I know that matter cannot come from nothing. I don’t have to look into science to figure this out, but by the witness of what the scriptures tell us.
I don’t expect Pres Nelson to come right out and tell me where the Book of Mormon events happened or if we came from an ape, I know through sound reasoning the answer that makes most sense to me. Now if the Brethren say otherwise I would always listen to them first, but in my opinion the Church is neutral on difficult issues that exist to help each of us individually come to a knowledge of the “truth of all things” as promised in the Book of Mormon. I don’t need to be commanded in all things!
All the teachings from current Brethren and those before them and from the Prophet Joseph Smith are to be taken as given. They are guides to the answers I seek. I leave one example on believing that the United Sates is the Choice and Promised land, I quote Pres Nelson when he was President of the Quorum of the Twelve who said, “The Book of Mormon reveals that Joseph, the son of Jacob who was once sold into Egypt, foresaw the Prophet Joseph Smith and his day (see 2 Ne. 3:6–21) and noted that there would be many similarities in their lives. Centuries later, the Prophet Joseph stated, “I feel like Joseph in Egypt.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, ed. Dean C. Jesse, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984, p. 409; spelling modernized.) The Book of Mormon reveals that the inheritance of Joseph, son of Israel, was not forgotten when, as promised in the Abrahamic covenant, land was distributed to the tribes of Israel. Joseph’s inheritance was to be a land choice above all others. (See Ether 13:2, 8.) It was choice not because of beauty or wealth of natural resources, but choice because it was chosen. It was to be the repository of sacred writing on plates of gold from which the Book of Mormon would one day come, choice because it would eventually host world headquarters of the restored church of Jesus Christ in the latter days.” A TREASURED TESTAMENT By Elder Russell M. Nelson Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said, “…Truly rock-ribbed faith and uncompromised conviction comes with its most complete power when it engages our head as well as our heart… Truth borne by the Holy Spirit comes with, in effect, two manifestations, two witnesses if you will—the force of fact as well as the force of feeling… I believe God intends us to find and use the evidence He has given—reasons, if you will—which affirm the truthfulness of His work… Evidence is still evidence even if it is not immediately observable… “My testimony to you tonight is that the gospel is infallibly true and that a variety of infallible proofs supporting that assertion will continue to come until Jesus descends as the ultimate infallible truth of all. Our testimonies aren’t dependent on evidence—we still need that spiritual confirmation in the heart of which we have spoken—but not to seek for and not to acknowledge intellectual, documentable support for our belief when it is available is to needlessly limit an otherwise incomparably strong theological position and deny us a unique, persuasive vocabulary in the latter-day arena of religious investigation and sectarian debate. Thus armed with so much evidence of the kind we have celebrated here tonight, we ought to be more assertive than we sometimes are in defending our testimony of truth… Farrer [English cleric Austin Farrer] said: “Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.”… May our Father in Heaven bless us and an ever-larger cadre of young scholars around the Church to do more and more to discover and delineate and declare the reasons for the hope that is in us, that like those converted Lamanites, we may with bold conviction hold up to a world that desperately needs it “the greatness of the evidences which [we have] received,” especially of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” The Greatness of the Evidence By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland August 16, 2017
I leave you with true words of a prophet, “Whenever I hear anyone, including myself, say, “I know the Book of Mormon is true,” I want to exclaim, “That’s nice, but it is not enough!” We need to feel, deep in “the inmost part” of our hearts, that the Book of Mormon is unequivocally the word of God. We must feel it so deeply that we would never want to live even one day without it. I might paraphrase President Brigham Young in saying, “I wish I had the voice of seven thunders to wake up the people” to the truth and power of the Book of Mormon.” President Russell M. Nelson The Book of Mormon: What Would Your Life Be Like without It?“
Lehi’s Family (Left): Travels to the Promised Land recounts the story of Lehi and his family as they travel from Jerusalem to America, the Promised Land. Beautiful and engaging artwork portrays stories from 1 Nephi including obtaining the brass plates from the wicked Laban, Nephi’s broken bow, the vision of the Tree of Life, the building of Nephi’s ship, and the Lehite voyage to the Promised Land.
For children ages 3 and older. Illustrated by the author, Robyn T. Pearson.
Does the Geography of the Book of Mormon Matter? By Rod Meldrum
“Does the geography of the Book of Mormon matter? The book is true no matter where it happened. Right? This is a response I have heard many others say and one I have said myself many times. But reading in 3 Nephi this morning made me change my mind. I think the Book of Mormon geography does matter.
When Christ appeared to the Nephites as the resurrected Savior, He blessed them, He taught them He prayed with them and for them. He also quoted to them the words of Isaiah. He reminded them that they had been given THIS LAND for their inheritance and were warned that they would not be allowed to remain on THIS LAND if they did not remain faithful. This emphasis shows the significance of the LAND to the Book of Mormon people, and the people who would be brought by the hand of God to THIS LAND and now occupy THIS LAND.
Christ himself said, “great are the words of Isaiah” and He commanded the Nephites and all who read the Book of Mormon to search his words. If the words of Isaiah are great and we are commanded to read them and study them and ultimately understand them, then I believe we most certainly should understand where THIS LAND is and we should understand who the Lord is taking to when he talks about the inhabitants of THIS LAND. Because he is in fact talking directly to those who are on THIS LAND and if you don’t know where that is you can’t fully understand the message.
Does the geography of the Book of Mormon matter? With over 1400 references to “this land” in the Book of Mormon I’m not sure how the Book of Mormon prophets could have made it clearer. THIS LAND matters. Geography matters. Those of us on THIS LAND the “promised land,” the Land of Liberty, the Land of the New Jerusalem need to know who we are. America is THIS LAND. America is a covenant land. I live on THIS LAND. Even the chapter heading of 3 Nephi also confirms this truth.
Israel will be gathered when the Book of Mormon comes forth–The Gentiles will be established as a free people in America–They will be saved if they believe and obey; otherwise, they will be cut off and destroyed–Israel will build the New Jerusalem, and the lost tribes will return.
I am learning more each day about what the prophecies say about me, my fellow Gentiles and my House of Israel sisters and brothers on THIS LAND. I desire to understand my covenant that I have made with the Lord and the Book of Mormon is the “voice crying from the dust” helping me understand it. The geography of the Book of Mormon matters to me.” Rod Meldrum FIRM Foundation President
COME FOLLOW ME GEOGRAPHY by Bob Webster
Our friend Bob Webster wrote this article about geography you will enjoy. He recently gave a talk at our Virtual Expo. See website to view by members here: https://bookofmormonevidencestreaming.com/ To sign up for a 3 month membership for over 600 videos visit here:
“Despite the official statements that the Church remains neutral on Book of Mormon Geography (BoMG), the artists paid by the Church consistently portray BoMG as if it happened in meso-America.
For example, to illustrate the early chapters of Mosiah, the pictures on pp 50, 52, 57, 58, 61, 62, 66, 70, & 74 portray a geographical mindset/paradigm of tropical vegetation, cut-stone buildings and mountainous terrain. The same bias is evident in famous paintings in BoM editions, chapel walls and Temples.
Of all the physical features available on earth to represent those chapters, why were those chosen consistently? Since the Church claims to maintain neutrality on geography, WHY were features representative of tropical Central America chosen consistently?
Since there are so many known and verified BoMG locations associated with Missouri, North America, why not display that terrain in church-approved artworks? Since scholars know that Moses specified ramps to approach a holy temple, and specifically forbid cut-stone steps, why show them (p.62) in a publication teaching God’s people Truth about BoM reality? Truth is taught visually as well as by the written word, as we all know. Temple ordinances rely on it.
Considering that the BoMG location of the Hill Ramah-Cumorah in New York State was officially declared by the Church First Presidency in 1990, and the location of one of the Nephite-Lamanite battlegrounds was verified by Joseph Smith at Zelph’s Mound in Ilinois, and the locations of three other BoM cities – Manti. Melek and Zarahemla – are all authenticated in Church historical records, why weren’t any of those environments used as background scenery for those artists’ renderings? Who guides and edits the artists?
Even the locations of The Garden of Eden, Adam-ondi-Ahman and New Jerusalem are scriptural, church history, geographical locations. Any of those would have been undisputed choices for illustrating BoM lessons in the official Come Follow Me Manual, without violating “BoMG neutrality.”
Is it coincidental that BoMG references are consistently removed by writers of both of the Church’s official historical record, SAINTS, as “The Standard of Truth?” Who edits the writers?” Bob Webster Pleasant Grove, UT. 84062