What does Scripture Central and FAIR Mormon say about the final battles of the Nephites not being able to have fit on this hill Cumorah?
Both apologists argue that the New York Hill Cumorah (a glacial drumlin near Palmyra) doesn’t match the text’s description and couldn’t have hosted the scale of battle described. Blog here about drumlins.
Scripture Central notes that many Church leaders have simply and accurately said that the geography of the Book of Mormon is not revealed, and several LDS scholars have questioned whether the New York hill could feasibly be the Cumorah described in the text. They point to the timeline problem: Moroni had to flee for his life after the final battle and didn’t bury the plates until A.D. 421, 36 years after the battle, so there could be thousands of miles between the battle site and where the plates were finally hidden. Some scholars instead place the final battle in modern-day Mexico, just northwest of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. https://scripturecentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah
FAIR makes a related point: the plates of Mormon (the ones Joseph Smith found) were not the plates hidden in the Book of Mormon’s hill Cumorah — only Mormon’s other records were buried there. The New York drumlin was given the name “Cumorah” due to a misreading by early Latter-day Saints, even though it isn’t the Cumorah described in the text. FAIR also documents that the “New York Cumorah” assumption has historically been challenged even by figures who initially held it, like Sidney B. Sperry, who initially supported the New York Cumorah view but began questioning it during the 1960s.
FAIR https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Hill_Cumorah/Quotes?_mw=1781559374488&title=Book_of_Mormon%2FHill_Cumorah%2FQuotes&_mw=1781559374655
Neither source frames this primarily as “the battle couldn’t physically fit on the hill” in terms of literal acreage — the core argument is more about the textual description of “the land of Cumorah” (a region with many waters, rivers and fountains, plus the narrow neck of land, distances, and travel times in Mormon/Ether) not matching western New York’s geography, combined with the chronology problem of Moroni’s 36-year journey before burying the plates. This is the basis for Mesoamerican/Limited Geography models that both apologists discuss favorably, while noting that no official Church position has been adopted on Book of Mormon geography. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
It is the view of Heartlanders that the final battles were not held ON the hill, but ALL AROUND the land of the hill Cumorah in NY. Joseph and Oliver described it below.
Between These Hills
“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery’s Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159 .
Land of Cumorah, by a Hill
“And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle…
And when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.” Mormon 6 2,5
Now that we understand that ALL the fight did not happen ON the Hill Cumorah but AROUND the hill, let us discuss an often left out idea. If the Mesoamerican theorists claim the Hill was not large enough for ALL the belligerents, let us discuss actually how large the hill really was. We will show that the actual hill was likely large enough to have ALL the battles fit on Cumorah. However, we do not believe this is what happened. We believe the entire Hill plus the one-mile valley around the hill was more than sufficient to hold the entire final battles. It is also noted that the many final battles could have been held 50 or more miles west of Cumorah as little battles in many locations leading up to the great and FINAL Battle around the Hill Cumorah.
So the camp — and by extension the battle — took place in the land of Cumorah, surrounding the hill, not confined to the hilltop.
Hill Cumorah Dimensions
I asked Claude May 28, 2026:
What are the dimensions of the hill Cumorah in NY. In other words the ground it sits on is how many feet long and wide. and how many square feet. Also how many adults could stand in that space back to back.
Claude answered:
Great, I have solid data. Here’s a full breakdown:
Hill Cumorah — Size & Dimensions
Hill Cumorah is a glacial drumlin (an elongated hill formed by ancient glaciers). It measures 1.7 miles long and 0.4 miles wide, rising about 140 feet above the surrounding lowland. Book of Mormon Evidence
Converting to Feet:
- Length: 1.7 miles × 5,280 ft = ~8,976 feet long
- Width: 0.4 miles × 5,280 ft = ~2,112 feet wide
Note: These are the full base dimensions of the hill/drumlin, not just the historic site property.
Square Footage of the Base:
Because a drumlin is oval/ellipse-shaped (not a rectangle), the proper formula is:
Area of ellipse = π × (half-length) × (half-width) = 3.1416 × 4,488 ft × 1,056 ft = ≈ 14,896,000 sq ft (~342 acres)
This aligns closely with the site covering approximately 283 acres owned by the Church (which excludes some surrounding farmland at the edges). Grokipedia
How Many Adults Could Stand There?
A standing adult occupies roughly 2 sq ft (about 1.5 ft × 1.5 ft, back-to-back, shoulder-to-shoulder):
- 14,896,000 sq ft ÷ 2 sq ft per person = ~7.4 million people
Using the 283-acre owned property as a more conservative figure:
- 283 acres × 43,560 sq ft/acre = ~12,327,480 sq ft ÷ 2 = ~6.1 million people
Quick Summary Table
| Measurement | Value |
| Length | ~8,976 ft (1.7 miles) |
| Width | ~2,112 ft (0.4 miles) |
| Base area (ellipse) | ~14.9 million sq ft (~342 acres) |
| Church-owned property | ~283 acres (~12.3 million sq ft) |
| Adults standing (full base) | ~7.4 million |
| Adults standing (owned site) | ~6.1 million |
342 Acres of Battle Standing
342 acres = 342 × 43,560 sq ft = 14,897,520 square feet
For “battle standing” — meaning people with room to swing weapons, move, and fight rather than just stand crammed in a static crowd — you need significantly more space per person than a packed crowd. Historical and military estimates for a fighting formation typically run 6–10 square feet per person (enough to wield a sword, spear, or swing an arm without hitting your neighbor):
| Spacing assumption | Sq ft/person | People in 342 acres |
|---|---|---|
| Tight shield-wall formation | ~6 sq ft | ~2,480,000 |
| Typical melee fighting space | ~9 sq ft | ~1,655,000 |
| Looser skirmish spacing | ~15 sq ft | ~993,000 |
| Open battlefield maneuvering | ~25 sq ft | ~596,000 |
So 342 acres could plausibly hold anywhere from roughly 600,000 to 2.5 million people in active battle formation, depending on how tightly packed the ranks are.
For context: a “tight” ancient battle line (like a Greek phalanx or Roman legion formation) often assumed about 3 ft of frontage per soldier and several feet of depth between ranks — which lands in that 6–10 sq ft/person range. So a figure like 600,000–1 million combatants fighting (not just standing) across 342 acres is well within plausible bounds — comfortably large enough to accommodate something like the 230,000 Nephite casualties described in Mormon 6, even before counting Lamanite forces, non-combatants, or the wider “land of Cumorah” beyond the hill itself.
Considering a One-Mile valley as Cowdery describes, in that base area of 1 mile wide by 1.7 miles long, how many people could stand in that area?
Area: 1 mile × 1.7 miles = 1.7 square miles
Converting to square feet: 1 mile = 5,280 ft, so:
- 5,280 ft × (1.7 × 5,280 ft) = 5,280 × 8,976 = 47,393,280 square feet
Now it depends on how packed people are standing. Here are standard crowd-density estimates (people per square foot):
| Density | Sq ft per person | People per sq mile | Total in 1.7 sq mi |
|---|---|---|---|
| Loose/comfortable (arm’s length) | ~10 sq ft | ~2.8 million | ~4.7 million |
| Dense crowd (concert-like) | ~4.5 sq ft | ~6.2 million | ~10.5 million |
| Tightly packed (shoulder to shoulder) | ~2.5 sq ft | ~11.2 million | ~19 million |
| “Mosh pit” / crush density | ~1 sq ft | ~28 million | ~47 million |
So depending on assumptions, this 1.7-square-mile area could fit anywhere from roughly 4.7 million to 47 million people, with ~10 million being a reasonable “tightly packed crowd” estimate.
If this connects back to the Cumorah discussion — a battle area like that could easily hold armies in the hundreds of thousands or even low millions while leaving plenty of room for people to actually move and fight, rather than standing shoulder-to-shoulder like a static crowd.
Summary:
With 342 acres of the actual Hill Cumorah it could accommodate:
600,000 Battle Standing
2.5 Million Back-to-Back
With 1.7 Square Miles (1,088 Acres) of the West Valley it could accommodate:
Battle Standing 4.8 Million
Back-to-Back 19 Million
So a total of 11.4 Million Battle Standing could have been fighting on the Hill Cumorah itself including the 1-mile valley surrounding the hill.
Whether you follow the Mesoamerican theory or the Heartland theory, millions of warriors could have been on the hill and surrounding in the one-mile area to have the last battles. It seems very short-sided for the Mesoamerican theorists to insist the battles took place ON the hill, but even with that belief it may have been possible but not likely. The Final Battles were in the Land of Cumorah and not ON Cumorah.