Heartlanders say, “Mormon’s depository and Moroni’s stone box are in the same hill Cumorah in New York in different locations.” [One Hill Cumorah only in New York]
Mesoamericanists say, “Mormon’s depository is at some hill in Mexico, and Moroni’s stone box is in New York” [Neither one was necessarily called Cumorah. See “Saints” Vol. 1]
Most of those who believe the Book of Mormon events happened in Mesoamerica, believe the final battles at Cumorah happened in Mexico on a different hill, not the hill Joseph received the plates in New York. They say the hill in New York is too small to have millions fighting, or couldn’t be used as a strategic defensive position, and there are no battle artifacts near by. There can’t be a hidden cave within the New York drumlin as the NY hill was not a normal hill with caves, but being a drumlin which is a ridge of glacial drift it was impossible to have a cave there. These theorists advocate the hill in NY called Cumorah is not the only hill that could be called Cumorah, which is technically correct. See quotes below from Book of Mormon Central.
Book of Mormon Central Quotes
“Knowing that he and his people faced impending doom, Mormon “made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni” (Mormon 6:6). That is to say, Mormon deposited what remained of Nephite textual sources in the hill Cumorah [Somewhere in Mexico] for preservation and entrusted the plates of what would later become the published Book of Mormon (the record obtained by Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century) to his son Moroni, who finished and later sealed the record…
There is “no historical evidence that Moroni called the hill ‘Cumorah’ in 1823” during his first encounter with the Prophet Joseph Smith… [See Blog here that identifies some early times the name “Cumorah” was known to be used beginning in 1827]
As far as can be determined, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself only associated the hill in New York with the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon towards the end of his life…
“The location of where Joseph Smith obtained the golden plates which he translated by the gift and power of God is well known. Whether that was the same location as the final destruction of the Nephites remains open to discussion.” Read the full article here: Book of Mormon Central Know/Why #489 [Parenthesis Added]
I wanted to address this issue the Mesoamerican theorists believe and explain it to you. Most Mesoamerican theorists say that the plates that Mormon gave to his son Moroni before his death, were not necessarily deposited in the same hill as where Joseph found them. That is repeated by my new blogging friend Matthew Grow. Here is a little about him, some of which information I just learned today.
Matthew J. Grow is an American historian specializing in Mormon history. As of 2012, Grow was the director of publications for the Church History Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and was among scholars preparing for publication of the Joseph Smith Papers. In 2018, the LDS Church published Volume 1 of a new history of the church, entitled Saints with the first volume named The Standard of Truth. Grow was listed first among four general editors for the volume. In 2020, with the release of Saints Vol 2, No Unhallowed Hand Grow was again list first among the four general editors. Grow has a bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University and a Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame. During his graduate training, Grow did a summer seminar course in Latter-day Saint history that was directed by Richard L. Bushman. Source
In response to a recent blog I did, Matthew said, “Cumorah as the name of a hill makes perfect sense–what else would it be called? But that doesn’t mean there can’t be another hill with the same name. Mormon buried all the plates in Cumorah [Mexico] except the golden plates he gave to Moroni. Moroni never indicates he buries the plates in the same hill where his father buried the other records. Instead, he says he wanders where he can. He wanders for decades and flees from the Lamanites. Very possible to arrive in the great lakes region over that period of time [36 years].” Matthew Grow Comments in blog called Why Do Many Church Historians Insist that the Final Battles of The Nephites and Lamanites Didn’t Happen at the One and Only Hill Cumorah? [Parenthesis Added] HERE
Matthew says above, “Moroni never indicates he buries the plates in the same hill where his father buried the other records.” Speaking to Matthew I said, “I believe it is more likely Moroni traveled and wandered a small distance from his home (Cumorah in NY), and more than likely he knew of many places locally to hide with the plates. Why would Moroni travel some 3,500 miles for 36 years all the time worrying about running into strangers, staying alive, hiding the plates etc? I would think Moroni would stay close to where the Cave in Cumorah was also located. I know you probably think the Cave in Cumorah was either a dream of Brigham’s and Oliver or that the Cave was somewhere in Mesoamerica. I believe what Orson Pratt said here. “These new plates were given to Moroni to finish the history. And all the ancient plates, Mormon deposited in Cumorah [NY], about three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ. When Moroni, about thirty-six years after, made the deposit of the book entrusted to him, he was, without doubt, inspired to select a department of the hill separate from the great depository of the numerous volumes hid up by his father [In NY]. The particular place in the hill where Moroni secreted the book, was revealed, by the angel, to the prophet Joseph Smith, to whom the volume was delivered in September, A.D. 1827. But the grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent, was located in another department of the hill,[Meaning not in the stone box where the plates and breastplate were buried], and its contents under the charge of holy angels, until the day should come for them to be transferred to the sacred temple of Zion.” 1866 Orson Pratt Millennial Star (28 (27): 417) [Parenthesis and color added]
Cave at Cumorah [NY]
Below is a quote from Brigham Young about the “grand repository” as Orson Pratt described above, and it was in a different part of the hill than the stone box where the gold plates were buried. The Mesoamericanists say this cave at Cumorah was simply a dream that happened somewhere in Mexico or it didn’t happen at all.
“When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: ‘This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.
Now, you may think I am unwise in publicly telling these things, thinking perhaps I should preserve them in my own breast; but such is not my mind. I would like the people called Latter-day Saints to understand some little things with regard to the workings and dealings of the Lord with his people here upon the earth. I could relate to you a great many more, all of which are familiar to many of our brethren and sisters.” Brigham Young Journal of Discourses 1XIX., p. 38).”1950 Revised Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Commentary page 47-48
Visiting Temple Square – Moroni at “a hill in New York”
By JONATHAN NEVILLE
As I explained on the consensus blog, I visited the North Visitors Center on Temple Square again Tuesday to see the awesome display of two Cumorah’s.
I want to point out some details of “Moroni’s Cumorah,” which our LDS intellectuals describe as “a hill in New York” where Moroni deposited the plates after walking 2,400 miles north from the “real Cumorah” they are still searching for in southern Mexico.
Why they’re looking in Mexico is a fun story for another day.
But for now, imagine you’re a missionary serving on Temple Square.
Millions of people visit Temple Square every year, and you take them to see this display of Mormon abridging the record in a Mayan cave. Then you take them across the hall (the distance representing the 2,400 miles) to New York where Moroni is burying the plates.
As a missionary, you hope your visitors don’t know anything about Church history, because if they do, they will ask questions you can’t answer without contradicting these displays.
For example, what happens when a visitor points out that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, and every other prophet and apostle who has spoken on the issue has declared that there is one Cumorah and it is in New York?
Are you supposed to explain that these exhibits, which directly contradict the prophets, are wrong? Or are you supposed to say we believe the intellectuals now instead of the prophets?
Do you just hope no one asks the question? And how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance you feel every day when you walk through these displays?
_____
The problem is, these displays reflect what our intellectuals say, not what the scriptures and the prophets say.
Our intellectuals can’t explain Church history so they resort to magical thinking and invented scenarios that contradict what Joseph and Oliver explained.
You’re a missionary, taking a visitor to look at the display of Moroni on “a hill in New York.”
You explain that Moroni hauled the plates 2,400 miles from Mayan territory in Mexico, back where Mormon abridged the plates in a Mayan cave, and then buried them in a stone box on “a hill in New York,” just as Joseph explained in Joseph Smith-History 1:51-52.
But you know better than to look up the scripture, and you definitely don’t read it to your visitor, because the scripture says the box contained the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. That’s all. Oliver affirmed this in Letter VIII.
“What about the round thing?”
“That’s the Liahona,” you explain as you press the button to watch the video. You bite your tongue as the video shows Moroni putting the Liahona in the stone box because you know there are no accounts of the Liahona being in the stone box.
“And those letters?”
“Oh, those are letters Moroni’s father wrote to him. He included them in the plates, in the Book of Moroni.”
“So he wrote on the plates in New York?”
You know he did–Moroni told Joseph the record was “written and deposited” [See quote below in red] not far from Joseph’s home–but you can’t say that because it contradicts your script and the displays so you say, “We don’t know where he wrote on the plates.”
“He [Moroni] then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country, and said they were literal descendants of Abraham. He represented them as once being an enlightned and intelligent people, possessing a correct knowledge of the gospel, and the plan of restoration and redemption. He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.” Letter IV Oliver Cowdery in Joseph Smith Papers History 1834-1836 page 65 at the top.
Neville continues, “But he’s burying the plates so he already wrote on them. Why did he carry the letters all the way from Mexico if he already copied them onto the plates?”
“It’s just a concept, I guess.” By now, you want to change the subject, but your visitor is still interested in the display.
“What about that sword?”
“Oh,” you say, “that’s the sword of Laban.”
Your visitor presses the button on the screen and watches as Moroni puts the sword of Laban into the stone box.
“Wow,” your visitor says, “that is a deep box. Or a small sword.”
You say nothing. Now you’re really glad you didn’t read the scriptures to your visitor, and you want to divert your visitor’s attention to one of the films or something.
Later, you wonder if your companion is wondering the same things you do, like, who made these displays? You find yourself wondering if someone translated the sealed portion to come up with all this stuff, but you realize the displays are really just reflecting the theories of a bunch of Mormon intellectuals who don’t believe the scriptures or what the prophets have said.
_____
These displays are sophisticated persuasion.
The intellectuals who teach at BYU and in CES know that Joseph and Oliver taught that the Hill Cumorah was in New York. They explicitly stated that the “hill in New York” was not only the place where Moroni buried the plates, but also the scene of the final battles of the Jaredites and the Nephites and the location of Mormon’s depository of Nephite records and artifacts. Their teaching was affirmed by Brigham Young and many others.
But the intellectuals teach that all the prophets and apostles are wrong.
Instead, they insist the “real Cumorah” is in Mexico, and they promote their theory at BYU, in CES, in BYU Studies, at FairMormon, Book of Mormon Central, Meridian Magazine, and elsewhere.
But they have a problem.
They’ve been able to successfully suppress Letter VII–try finding a reference to it in any of the “scholarly,” “peer-approved” LDS publications. They’ve been able to confuse students by claiming that the prophets themselves sent mixed messages, as I’ve explained here: Letter I to VIII Here
https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/
But they haven’t been able to change the scriptures (yet).
Instead, they pre-suade people through art, media and displays so that when people read the scriptures, they already have a mental image that is more persuasive than the words on the page. [Added by editor: Pre-suade- A beautifully crafted persuasive argument can completely fail, even backfire, if you don’t control what is happening in the moment before you deliver that persuasive argument. In other words, you have to pre-suade before you can per-suade]
Neville continues, “Anyone reading Joseph Smith-History (or Letter VIII) sees that there were three things in Moroni’s stone box. But once you’ve been pre-suaded by the Visitors Center, you will actually believe the box also contained the Liahona and the sword of Laban.
Why do the intellectuals need you to think this?
Because of D&C 17:1
“Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors [Liahona] which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea.”
The official Testimony of the Three Witnesses only mentions the plates. That’s all anyone talked about at the time. It was only later that they saw the other objects, along with many other things. That’s why the verse separates the other objects with the clause “and also.” It was later, at the depository [The Hill Cumorah in a different location than the stone box where the plates were hidden], not in the woods near Fayette, that the witnesses saw these other objects.
Oliver and Joseph explained that Mormon’s depository was in the New York hill, and Brigham Young confirmed that these additional objects were in Mormon’s depository in the New York hill. [See article above under the title Cave at Cumorah [NY]
Neville continues, “But our intellectuals insist they were wrong because Mormon’s depository was actually in Mexico, as depicted in the display on Temple Square.
Therefore, the only possible source for the Liahona and the sword of Laban was Moroni’s stone box.
Therefore, according to the intellectuals, the scriptures are wrong, or at least incomplete. Joseph Smith forgot to list the Liahona and the sword of Laban when he wrote Joseph Smith-History 1:51-52. Oliver Cowdery forgot to mention them in Letter VIII.
That’s why the display depicts this.
If the display depicted the words of the prophets instead of the words of the intellectuals, we’d have Mormon’s depository and Moroni’s stone box in the same hill, as Joseph, Oliver and all of their contemporaries and successors have taught.
We would have Moroni placing only the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate in the stone box.
We would have the other objects in the depository.
And the missionaries wouldn’t have to dance around the obvious disconnect between the displays and the words of the prophets.”
Source: Book of Mormon Wars by Jonathan Neville. [Parenthesis, color, bold and quotes were added]
