Cumorah is “This North Country”

1665

In the First Chapter of Ether, Moroni is abridging the writings of Ether. What area or place is Moroni’s location, as he abridged these writings?

Ether 1:1 “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.” (See Map Below)

“Recall that Moroni was writing about the people who lived in “this north country,” implying he was living in the north country while he was engraving the plates. (Oliver Cowdery said the book was written and hidden near Joseph’s home in Palmyra*, which corroborates what Moroni wrote.) Because the terms “land southward” and “land northward” are relative terms, the key is always to understand the frame of reference. From Moroni’s perspective, writing in the north country, Zarahemla would be southward. (Of course, Zarahemla is also the land northward in relation to the land of Nephi, which was south of the narrow strip of wilderness.)” Jonathan Neville Moroni’s America page 259

*“He [Moroni] then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country, and said they were literal descendants of Abraham. He represented them as once being an enlightned and intelligent people, possessing a correct knowledge of the gospel, and the plan of restoration and redemption. He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.” Letter IV Oliver Cowdery

“Moroni used Ether’s account of the Jaredites to teach lessons and give warnings to his readers, particularly the future occupants of his homelandthe Jaredite and Nephite promised land, today called America. Including us, all three groups occupy the promised land. All three are under the covenant to keep the commandments, which brings the promised blessings.” Jonathan Neville Moroni’s America page 260

Excerpt from Letter IV.

He [Moroni] then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country, and said they were literal descendants of Abraham. He represented them as once being an enlightned and intelligent people, possessing a correct knowledge of the gospel, and the plan of restoration and redemption. He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.

“Yet,” said he, “the scriptures must be fulfilled before it is translated, which says that the words of a book, which were sealed, were presented to the learned; for thus has God determined to leave men without excuse, and show to the meek that his arm is <​not​> shortned that it cannot save.”

A part of the book was sealed, and was not to be opened yet. The sealed part, said he, contains the same revelation which was given to John upon the isles of Patmos, and when the people of the Lord are prepared, and found worthy, then it will be unfolded unto them.

On the subject of bringing to light the unsealed part of this record, it may be proper to say, that our brother was expressly informed, that it must be done with an eye single to the glory of God; if this consideration did not wholly characterize all his proceedings in relation to it, the adversary of truth would overcome him, or at least prevent his making that proficiency in this glorious work which he otherwise would.

While describing the place where the record was deposited, he gave a minute relation of it, and the vision of his mind being opened at the same time, he was permitted to view it critically; and previously being acquainted with the place, he was able to follow the direction of the vision, afterward, according to the voice of the angel, and obtain the book.

Excerpt from Letter VII.

I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited.

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that rout. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon 120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this vally fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Saviour and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.

But a long time previous to this disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers, which were in his possession, he could have learned that such would be the case. Alma, who lived before the coming of the Messiah, prophesies this. He, however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah: by it, or around it pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites The opposing army were to the west, and in this same vally, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of this same hill, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellow men. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact…

In this vale lie commingled, in one mass of ruin the ashes of thousands, and in this vale was destined to consume the fair forms and vigerous systems of tens of thousands of the human race—blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones and dust with dust!

Excerpt from Letter VIII

I have now given sufficent on the subject of the hill Cumorah—it has a singular and imposing appearance for that country, and must ex[c]ite the curiosity curious enquiry of every lover of the book of Mormon: though I hope never like Jerusalem and the sepulcher of our Lord, the pilgrims. In my estimation, certain places are dearer to me for what they now contain than for what they have contained. For the satisfaction of such as believe I have been thus particular, and to avoid the question being a thousand times asked, more than any other cause, shall procede and be as particular as heretofore.

Describing NORTHWARD in the United States

If you impose your compass on a map, you will see that most of North America is included in a 90-degree “northward” direction if you start from Central America (Orange Line). If you start in Florida, you could end up anywhere from Washington State to Maine. (Dark Blue Line) And that’s assuming the Nephites had satellite-accurate compasses. If you start at the proposed head of River Sidon,(Cairo, IL), “northward” could mean Alaska to the near eastern Great Lakes close to Cumorah (Green Line).
A term such as “northward” gives at least a 180 degree range of possibility; i.e., everything north of the speaker’s location. You might infer a northwest direction when someone else infers a northeast direction. In my view, “northward” means anywhere north of the point of reference.


If you impose your compass on a map, you will see that most of North America is included in a 90-degree “northward” direction if you start from Central America. If you start in Florida, you could end up anywhere from Washington State to Maine. And that’s assuming the Nephites had satellite-accurate compasses.

No-Wise #245

by Jonathan Neville

NOTE: M2C means Mesoamerican 2-Cumorah Theory (Those who believe the Book of Mormon events happened in Mesoamerica believe there are two Hill Cumorah’s, one in NY and one in Mexico somewhere)

The other day Book of Mormon Central re-posted No-wise #245 on Facebook.https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-does-the-book-of-mormon-include-the-rise-and-fall-of-two-nations

This is a classic example of confirmation bias.

You have to read the No-wise to fully appreciate it.

The history of Mesoamerica also shows the rise and fall of two major cultures during parallel time periods (see chart).1 John E. Clark, a Latter-day Saint and prominent Mesoamerican archaeologist, noted, “The two-civilizations requirement used to be a problem for the Book of Mormon, but it no longer is now that modern archaeology is catching up.”2

The graphic shows the Jaredites vanishing around 400 B.C. That’s possible, but the text suggests a later date, more likely around 200-150 B.C.

The Book of Mormon doesn’t give us the date of the final battle of the Jaredites, but Limhi’s explorers found the Jaredite gold plates around 120 B.C. The blades of the swords were cankered with rust (Mosiah 8:11), but not completely rusted away.

Coriantumr lived with the people of Zarahemla for 9 months, apparently within the living memory of the people who met King Mosiah. King Mosiah translated the stone around 130 B.C.

Plus, of course, the Book of Ether relates the account of Ether’s family line, not the entire Jaredite nation. Moroni explained he was writing about the people who were destroyed “in this north country.” Moroni later told Joseph Smith that the Book of Mormon was written not far from Joseph’s home in Palmyra. These considerations suggest that only a relatively small group of the descendants of Jared and his brother and their friends was involved with the final battle of annihilation at Cumorah in New York. Perhaps the Olmecs were also descendants of Jared and his brother and their friends, but they were not Ether’s family line.
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Notice the area marked in red, described as “era of destruction and decline.” Like most civilizations, the Mayans had periodic warfare throughout their history, but the two major eras were around 200 A.D. and starting in 600 A.D.

These dates don’t correspond at all with the Book of Mormon account.

The no-wise recognizes this, but has an awesome rationalization:

The preclassic Maya “experienced peaks and troughs of development, with a mini-collapse about AD 200.”6 While the final Nephite battles are fought in the fourth century AD, the beginnings of their fall are sown ca. AD 200–210, when after reaching the height of prosperity, religious corruption and social stratification again sets in and proves to be divisive (4 Nephi 1:24–29).

The scriptures relate some division in society, but it consisted of religious disputes, not warfare.

Contrary to the Mayan mini-collapse about AD 200, the Nephite society was increasingly wealthy during this time. 

Contrary to the no-wise, the Nephites did not reach the height of prosperity before AD 200. In 260 AD, the scriptures tell us that

43 And also the people who were called the people of Nephi began to be proud in their hearts, because of their exceeding riches, and become vain like unto their brethren, the Lamanites.

In 300 AD, the Nephite society continued to be wealthy:

46. …And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic.
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To its credit, the no-wise recognizes that such warfare and collapse is ubiquitous among human societies:

The kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the great empires that once conquered them—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, and Rome—all testify of the same fate. Archaeology and history literally the world over attest to the rise and fall of great civilizations…

“Parallels” to the Book of Mormon are useful for instruction about principles (in this case, the consequences on society of sin).

But these parallels are not only not evidence that the Nephites were Mayans, they are evidence that the Nephites were not Mayans!
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M2C is pure confirmation bias. You will see the same obvious critical thinking errors in everything published by the M2C citation cartel..

The tragedy is that the bias these M2C intellectuals seek to confirm is their bias that the prophets are wrong about the New York Cumorah.

Source: About Central America


Understanding “North Country” in Helaman


A friend of mine, Bruce Lloyd wrote me a comment about this article that I thought was very good. Bruce explained the deletion of the word “THIS” from our 10th Article of Faith. Bruce said,

“The Word THIS

The word “this” seems like an innocuous word. However, in the scriptures, church history, and American History, it is a very significant word. Here are a few brief examples. Currently, the search feature doesn’t search for words like a, and, the, this, etc. at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org. My first thought was, “This is my work and my glory…”

In Ether 1:1 (as described in your blog), “this north country” is surely a reference to where Moroni was located when he made this statement. We should also remember that Mormon carried his son Mormon (age 11) to the land southward to the land of Zarahemla. They were somewhere north of the land of Zarahemla before they travelled southward. Eventually Mormon and Moroni end up back to the north at the hill Cumorah where the records were located.

In my copyright 1970 Triple Combination, which I purchased in the fall of 1971, the 10th article of faith states “…Ten Tribes; that Zion will be built upon this [the American] continent;.” It is identical wording to the Wentwor[t]h Letter (History of the Church, Vol 4, p 541, 1972 edition) except for a comma after the last “and” in my 1970 Triple Combination. Why was the word “this” removed sometime after 1970 and before 1982?

In my copyright 1981 Triple Combination, that I purchased in July 1985, the 10th article of faith is different and it states, “…Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent;.” Footnotes were added to the 1981 edition.” (See more of his comments and the bottom in the comment area of this blog)


In the editor’s opinion, Built upon the American continent is a totally different statement than,
Built upon this, the American Continent. I appreciate Bruce finding this edit that I think may have been purposely edited this way.