Many Church Historians Insist the Final Battles of the Nephites Occurred in Mesoamerica. Why?

I have received a lot of feedback in the comments section on my blog here titled, “Many Church Historians Insist that the Final Battles of the Nephites and Lamanites Occurred in Mesoamerica.” Why?” There is a good discussion with friends of the Mesoamerican Theory and the Heartland Theory that I think is informative and you will enjoy reading to make your own conclusions.

I believe it is important to understand both sides of the issue as we search for truth. From the earliest age until I was well into my 40’s I always thought the Hill Cumorah was in Mexico somewhere. With much reading and studying and prayer on my own, after hearing a message from Rod Meldrum, and through much prayer, I now believe strongly there is only one Cumorah in upstate New York.

Here are the Comments after the Blog above

• Bruce Lloyd says: July 9, 2021 
• For those who ask “where are all the bones and weapons that should be on the hill Cumorah”, I say where are the 60 Million buffalo bones? Surely, the victors would have retrieved all the useful weapons. However, we know that many stone arrowheads have been found in the last 200 years. Many mass grave burial pits have been found in the area. I’ve wondered why more copper weapons and artifacts have not been found in the Cumorah area. I wonder if access to copper around Lake Superior was cut off after about the year 321 AD when the 3 Nephites were pulled and the Nephites retreated to Cumorah for the next 60 years. As far as iron goes, we know the people of Limhi found the 24 plates and rusted swords left by the Jaredites. Here is an interesting account for a rusty pocketknife that has been around since about 1715 at a Michigan Fort. Look at https://www.archaeology.org/news/9832-210707-michigan-colonial-knife Would there be anything left after 1,600 or 2,000 years?
• [email protected] says: July 9, 2021 I am just amazed at the people who just want to talk and not investigate. The evidence is everywhere. Thanks Bruce.
• Wayne Sikes says: July 9, 2021 For me, a modern day effort to change the history, culture, language, laws and foundation upon which the United States of America is built, by such groups as BLM, Antifa, far left sided individuals and political parties including teachers, school boards, mayors, city councils, etc. is undeniable evidence that the United States of America is the promised/choice land of the Book of Mormon.
• If not so, why else would Satan and his minions put forth such a strong effort and work so hard, spending so much money to destroy the very land (United States of America) which we, the true believers and even the Mesoamerica crowd believe the Lord established.
• There is no other nation on this Earth which has such an effort to destroy and change everything good and true about it. The United States and our Constitution is incorporated into scripture making them part of Gods word ever much as any other part of the the scriptures. The United States of America as a nation, country and land along with the Constitution for the United States of America, is incorporated within the Doctrine and Covenants thereby making them scripture and the word of God. See Sections: 98, 101, 109 and Official Declaration 1.
• The only other nations, countries and lands that are found in scriptures is Israel, Jerusalem, and those lands within the middle East that are around Israel and Palestine including Rome, Greece and a few others all of which are in the middle East, Europe and the Mediterranean area. We know Israel and Jerusalem are a promised land but all of the others in that area we know are not choice and no others are unanimously accepted as being the promised/choice land of the Book of Mormon given to Lehi and the Jaredites.
• Satan would only work so hard to destroy that which God has blessed, established and that is choice and promised to his faithful. There are two lands which he has been trying to destroy from their inception and those are Israel and the United States of America. We will lose this choice land a third time if good people of the Lord choose to do nothing. The stakes are high and many souls are in danger. God’s people must keep every covenant and commandment they have made an oath to obey. God will not be mocked.
• Sins cannot be tolerated and we cannot put our hands in our pockets because we are ashamed to put our right hand over our heart. Our vote must express our true outward displays of religious belief and faith. How can a true member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints vote for a person or principle which promotes abortion, socialism, communism or anything which is contrary to the scriptures, the Prophets, the Temple and baptism covenants or any of the questions we are asked in a Temple Recommend interview? The answer is they cannot.
• If it is against the teachings of the Church and Gospel of Jesus Christ (please read over the Temple Recommend questions slowly) then we are to stand against those principles in our public and private lives including voting against those individuals and parties which uphold those un-Godly principles. How and for whom we cast our ballot will be counted unto us for our salvation or our damnation. It is time to choose. There is enough time to save this beautiful, choice land and there are yet enough good men, women and Priesthood to save The United States of America. However, time is short and the clock is ticking.
• [email protected] says: July 9, 2021
• Hi Wayne: You have given an excellent talk about our Country, Religion and Freedoms. We need good people like you spreading the word. It is so critical that the USA is indeed the Promised Land of the Book of Mormon. How can rational people think differently with the many quotes of the BofM?

• Matthew Grow says: July 10, 2021
• In October 2019 General Conference, President Oaks reminded us…”As to all of these, the wise cautions of Elders D. Todd Christofferson and Neil L. Andersen in earlier general conference messages are important to remember. Elder Christofferson taught: ‘It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.’” Many of the statements you quote by church leaders are used as authoritative as to geography and are given the weight of revelation. But those statements are not in the canon of scripture, so the counsel President Oaks gives should be considered when reading those statements. I appreciate your work and what you are sharing, but please note that many faithful members of the church don’t interpret the statements quoted and often included in your commentary as statements that are about geography. “America” covers more than the current political boundaries of the US, which did not exist when the Book of Mormon was written. A promised land geography that reaches into Mesoamerica fits comfortably within the framework of the statements within the Book of Mormon itself and comments by church leaders. Lamanite descended people could easily have made their way into the heartland over the 1,400 years between the end of the BoM and the time of Joseph Smith. These sorts of things should be acknowledged so as to give greater credence to your efforts at approaching the matter objectively. Many of us who lean towards a Mesoamerican setting do so based on the text of The Book of Mormon itself. Statements like the land of Nephi being nearly surrounded by water that don’t make sense for an Appalachia location unless people consider rivers to be sufficient water to define themselves as living on an island of the sea. The great lakes don’t seem to fit well within the descriptions in The Book of Mormon, either.
• While I’m very interested in what you’re doing and would like to believe a heartland geography for the BoM, I remain unconvinced based on the language in the scripture itself. Until we can account for mountains being raised along the Mississippi river and sinking into the sea, as described in the BoM, among many other things, it’s hard to conclude a heartland location is reasonable. I recommend you devote more efforts to addressing the language in the scripture and explaining how that fits in the heartland. What I have seen thus far on this front isn’t conclusive. Cumorah as the name of a hill makes perfect sense–what else would it be called? But that doesn’t mean there can’t be another hill with the same name. Mormon buried all the plates in Cumorah except the golden plates he gave to Moroni. Moroni never indicates he buries the plates in the same hill where his father buried the other records. Instead, he says he wanders where he can. He wanders for decades and flees from the Lamanites. Very possible to arrive in the great lakes region over that period of time.
• [email protected] says: July 10, 2021 
• Thank you, Matthew, for a cordial reply to my blog. My response may be long, but this subject is important to me. As you quoted, Elder Christofferson says, “It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.’ ”This quote saying “made by one leader” above is absolutely true, but it does not account for the hundreds of leaders who speak about North American geography.
• Do you who trust and believe Joseph Smith, believe his words when he said to Emma that he was “wandering over the Plains of the Nephites?” Do you trust the fact that Joseph was camped on the Mississippi River near a small landing near the town of Atlas, Illinois? Do you indeed believe Joseph wrote said letter of June 4, 1834, as shown in the Joseph Smith papers? Was Joseph telling Emma the truth? Did he have any reason to be making something up here? Do you really think that Joseph was traveling on the very plains that the Nephites had once walked on, some 2,000 years ago? If he were not, why would Joseph say he was walking on those very plains of the Nephites? Was he really roving over the Nephite mounds and was it indeed a proof of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon?
• Joseph was speaking to his wife, and he would have no reason to make something up or lie to her, would he? Did Zion’s Camp really see physical mounds? Did Joseph really say this, “proof of [the Book of Mormon’s] divine authenticity?” Yes, and yes. So, Joseph spoke a FACT, not a FEELING. Joseph spoke the truth and I believe Joseph, and I know that Joseph knows that the plains of the Nephites in the Book of Mormon are in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Today not one of the maps representing all the various geography of the Book of Mormon believe in the Hemispheric Model anymore. Not even the Mesoamericans or the Heartlanders believe the Hemispheric Model anymore because the vast distance in miles make it impossible to say all of North America is where the Nephites lived, and the Lamanites lived in South America.
• Also, if the Nephites really lived somewhere as I know they did, why do we need a fantasy map pretending we don’t know where they lived? If the Mesoamerican theorists really believe their theory, they would continue to use a real map of Central America, wouldn’t they?
• My friend Jonathan Neville said,
• “For decades, LDS scholars have labored to establish and defend a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon because they believed they were vindicating what Joseph Smith wrote (or approved) in three articles published in the Times and Seasons on 15 September and 1 October 1842. The discovery that it was someone other than Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, or John Taylor who wrote the articles, led to the further discovery that Benjamin Winchester wrote the articles linking the Book of Mormon to Central America, and that William Smith edited and published them. These discoveries raise serious questions about the original premise for both hemispheric and Mesoamerican theories of Book of Mormon geography. Although now discredited, these Times and Seasons articles have influenced generations of Latter-day Saints—members, scholars, and leaders—and have been frequently cited by those who advocate a Mesoamerican setting.” Moroni’s America Page 317.
• Joseph Fielding Smith said about the theory of Book of Mormon Geography in Mesoamerica; “Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Edited by Bruce McConkie, Vol. 3 [1999] 232–243.
• “The Prophet Joseph Smith here declares that “this land” shall be the place of the New Jerusalem and adds that it is to be “established on this continent.” Here the prophet links “this continent” with the “very spot of land” for the New Jerusalem indicating that it was not a hemispherical setting of which he was thinking. Joseph knew where the New Jerusalem was to be built, what “continent” and what “spot of land” that was prophesied of in the Book of Mormon, and they are all within the confines of North America and the United States.” Prophesies and Promises by Rod Meldrum and Bruce Porter

• The Prophet Joseph Smith makes it clear that we “learn from the Book of Mormon the very identical continent” and the very “spot of land” upon that continent that the New Jerusalem “is to stand” in the latter days. The Prophet continues: “Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation 21:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cities spoken of here. As everything cannot be had in so narrow a compass as a letter, I shall say with brevity, that there is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent (see Book of Mormon, Ether 13:1-12).
• “Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old.” This may suffice, upon the subject of gathering, until my next.” Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 85.
• You say in your reply, I recommend you devote more efforts to addressing the language in the scripture and explaining how that fits in the heartland. What I have seen thus far on this front isn’t conclusive. “One of the most common questions asked about the North American setting is, “what about the narrow neck of land?” People have been taught to think the Book of Mormon describes two large land masses connected by the “narrow neck of land.” The hourglass shape has been depicted in many LDS publications. When we look on a globe, we immediately think of Panama as a narrow neck of land connecting North and South America.
• However, scholars have pointed out that a hemispheric interpretation of Book of Mormon geography contradicts the text; the distances are simply too great.” Moroni’s America page 20I.
• It may be surprising to realize that the term “narrow neck of land” is used only once in the entire Book of Mormon. The passage is in Ether 10:20: “And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.”

• That’s it. A single passage. A passage describing the location of a Jaredite city. Nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11).
• In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether:
• “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.” Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.
• There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS! 1.NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20 2. NARROW NECK Alma 63:5 3. SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32 (Map Below) These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America.
• THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below: Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (a sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY. In Central America, the” land divides the sea.” (Isthmus of Tehuantepec), which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land. Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which does not sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon, the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
• Matthew, you also are quoted saying, “Lamanite descended people could easily have made their way into the heartland over the 1,400 years between the end of the BoM and the time of Joseph Smith. These sorts of things should be acknowledged so as to give greater credence to your efforts at approaching the matter objectively.”
• I speak about Lamanites descending to South America all the time. I call South and Central America the “Hinterlands.” Hinterlands is defined here as meaning the unknown area of North and South America that are not within the scope of the writings of the Book of Mormon. In other words, since we believe main events of the Book of Mormon happened in a limited area of North America around the Great Lakes in the east, and Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, and Missouri to the west, and south in Tennessee, West Virginia, Georgia, and Florida, all other areas will be discussed as “The Hinterlands”.
• We propose that Mesoamerica is the Hinterlands along with many other areas of the continent. As Mormon has said, “…I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people (Words of Mormon 1:5). There are many people in South and Central America that are Lamanites and part of the Hinterlands.

• In other words, if the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, then every other area would be the “Hinterlands” where other Lamanites may have migrated and lived. If, however the events of the Book of Mormon took place in the Heartland of the United States (As I believe they did), then every other area outside of this limited Heartland area would contain migrating Lamanites, including the western United States, Canada, Mexico, and South and Central America.
• Here are my two definitions. Heartland Core – Where the main Nephite and Lamanite events occurred! Mesoamerican Periphery – Where Nephites and Lamanites migrated to outside of this core! You also say, “He wanders for decades and flees from the Lamanites.” I believe it is more likely Moroni traveled and wandered within maybe 100 miles of his home, and more than likely he knew of many places locally to hide with the plates. Why would Moroni travel some 3,500 miles for 36 years all the time worrying about running into strangers, staying alive, hiding the plates etc? I would think Moroni would stay close to where the Cave in Cumorah was also located.
• I know you probably think the Cave in Cumorah was either a dream of Joseph’s as told to Brigham’s and Oliver, or that the Cave was somewhere in Mesoamerica. I believe what Orson Pratt said here. “These new plates were given to Moroni to finish the history. And all the ancient plates, Mormon deposited in Cumorah, about three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ. When Moroni, about thirty-six years after, made the deposit of the book entrusted to him, he was, without doubt, inspired to select a department of the hill separate from the great depository of the numerous volumes hid up by his father. The particular place in the hill where Moroni secreted the book, was revealed, by the angel, to the prophet Joseph Smith, to whom the volume was delivered in September, A.D. 1827. But the grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent, was located in another department of the hill, and its contents under the charge of holy angels, until the day should come for them to be transferred to the sacred temple of Zion.” 1866 Orson Pratt Millennial Star (28 (27): 417)
• Matthew, I appreciate your responses and your dialogue, but I will just have to disagree with you. There is only one Hill Cumorah in NY where Joseph received the plates and the same hill where the Jaredites and the Nephites were both destroyed. I love the article called, Pilgrimage to Palmyra: President B. H. Roberts and the Eastern States Mission’s 1923 Commemoration of Cumorah by Author Reid L. Neilson and Carson V. Teuscher
• “Because the Church was still several years away from purchasing the entire Hill Cumorah, conference organizers secured special permission from non–Latter-day Saint Pliny T. Sexton, owner and proprietor of the hill and surrounding farmland, to hold ceremonies on his property.87 The missionaries and members made their way, flags in hand, to the top of the hill while the sun peeked over the eastern horizon. When everyone summited, the appointed “Flag Sergeants” erected America’s national banner.
• They also raised a unique “Cumorah—Ramah” flag specially designed for the occasion—bisected into two colors, the blue “Cumorah” side bore the hill’s name “as it was known by the Nephites” in bright gold letters. The purple “Ramah” side similarly bore the ancient name of the hill in gold, as it “was known to the Jaredites—the people who first possessed the land.”8887. See David F. Boone, “‘A Man Raised Up’: The Role of Willard W. Bean in the Acquisition of the Hill Cumorah,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13, nos. 1–2 (2004): 24–37, 168–69. (88. Smith, “Minutes—the First General Conference of the Eastern States Mission,” 3; and “Palmyra Scene Re-Enacted,” 1. 89)
• “After President McKay’s remarks the canvas shroud that was covering the monument was removed and the congregations joined in the song “What Was Witnessed in the Heavens.” In attendance at this session was a young Gordon B. Hinckley, on his way home from his mission to England. He later wrote an article for the Deseret News giving these details of that event:
• “On the summit of the hill was a canvas-draped monument. At an appointed signal four trumpeters raised their gleaming instruments. In sharp clear tones “An Angel from On High” echoed across the placid countryside. The flag—the Stars and Stripes—fluttered in the wind, and it never looked more beautiful than it did over that hill sacred and important to the history of America. Then the canvas shroud fell from the monument, and the figure of Moroni looked out across the quiet fields which in his day of life had been scenes of carnage and sorrow. It is interesting to note that Gordon B. Hinckley, present at the first dedication of the Hill Cumorah as a returning missionary, would also be present at the 50th anniversary of the dedication in 1985 as a member of the First Presidency. Following the unveiling of the monument, President Heber J. Grant shared a few remarks followed by the dedicatory prayer.” A Study of the Hill Cumorah: A Significant Latter-Day Saint Landmark in Western New York Cameron J. Packer Brigham Young University – Provo
• I have fasted and prayed about the Hill Cumorah location, and it has become an important part of my testimony. Until the Prophet says otherwise, I will always believe there is only one Hill Cumorah in NY. I know the church is neutral on their position about geography. I am fine with that. I am not neutral. I also think it is disingenuous for other apologetic groups to claim they are neutral when I know they are decidedly proponents of the Mesoamerican Theory. Many of these groups claim to be neutral as to show themselves in agreement with the Church. Many of these groups dismiss the Heartland Theory and will not even allow our information on their website as a balance to their liberal views. I would think Matthew, you would help us give the members of the Church both sides of the argument. I am the organizer for Rod Meldrum’s events. I would like to personally give you an invitation to speak at our next FIRM Foundation Conference on Sept 23-25, 2021 at the Mountain America Expo Center in Sandy Utah. I would love for you to spend about 45 minutes on stage and share with our group how you feel we can support each other as fellow Saints in strengthening each of our testimonies about the Book of Mormon. Thanks for your consideration. Blog Here about Ramah and Cumorah with the Flag

• Kevin Price, PhD in Geography says: July 10, 2021 
• Rian, you have responded to Brother Grow’s comments well. For years I looked to Mesoamerica to find the scientific evidence for Book of Mormon Geography and it was a big nothing burger for over 30 years. The ruins they look to in Mesoamerica area were constructed hundred of years after the Nephites were destroyed, the ruins are not Israelite in structure but solid Hindu, the DNA of the Maya is Asian.
• The remains of human bone powder covering large areas have been found around the Hill Cumorah in New York as confirmed by Cornell University, the metals from the battles were carried off long ago and Parley Pratt said his father, who was a blacksmith found all the scrap metal he needed around Hill Cumorah.
• More importantly, however, we do not find Adam-ondi-Ahman, New Jerusalem, the restored gospel, the Land of Liberty, the Promised Land in Mesoamerica. The church headquarters is not found in Mesoamerica. Why did Thomas Stuart Ferguson leave the church after exploring for Book of Mormon evidence in Mesoamerica for decades and after spending hundreds of thousands of members money in Mesoamerica.
• To me, Meso is like eating cotton candy, it looks beautiful (Pagans have been very good at building temples, but they used them for Human blood sacrifices, and used stairs and ornately carved stone altars forbidden by God), but take a bite of the cotton candy and there is NOTHING there. The good news is many members are abandoning Meso and coming back to North America. Every member I talk to tells me they never believed in Meso and was waiting for the evidence to be found in North America. As we find more evidence, increasing numbers of members are coming to the truth. The avalanche of true is near and it is exciting.

• [email protected] says: July 10, 2021 
• Hi Dr. Price: I appreciate your feedback. Do they still have a Dept. of Geography at BYU do you know? I grew up believing my seminary teachers and seeing the Meso buildings in our light blue copies of the Book of Mormon when I served a mission. I always thought things happened in Central America. Just after my mission in 1977, I began wondering really how Moroni walked all the way some 3,000 miles to New York. I finally justified it and said, “well the Lord could have just moved the plates to New York Himself”, so I forgot about things.
• Then about 12 years ago this man named Rod Meldrum told me about the mounds of North America and I had never heard of mounds or any ancient civilization in North America. I began exploring and the rest is history. I believe now as Pres Monson said, “The Lord gave a divine promise to the ancient inhabitants of this favored country (the United States): ‘Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). Our Heavenly Father inspired the leaders of…the United States of America, that they might together, under His direction, having been raised up by God for the purpose, establish the Constitution of this country and…Bill of Rights, that by the year of our Lord 1805 [there would be] a climate where our Heavenly Father could send into this period of mortality a choice spirit who would be known as Joseph Smith, Jr.” Teachings of Thomas S. Monson by Thomas S. Monson 2011 (Ordained an Apostle, 1963; ordained President of the Church, 2008) I love the Book of Mormon!
• Dr. Kevin Price says: July 10, 2021 
• Yes, BYU does have a geography department, but I turned down a job offer from this department about 10 years ago because they decided to eliminate their graduate program. This means the department is more like a community college teaching program. At the time I had millions in NASA research funding and needed good graduate students to assist with the NASA work. I decided the program was not well suited for the research work I was doing. Their focus was more on tourism and mine was on the use of satellite and airborne color infrared imagery and other remote sensing data types for studying the earth (crops, range and forest lands). I was working in China, Zambia, El Salvador, Brazil, and Kazakhstan and needed good research assistance, which I knew could not be provided by undergraduate students. So, yes, BYU has an undergraduate program focuses mainly on tourism.

• [email protected] says: July 11, 2021
• Did BYU’s geography Dept. ever speak about geography in any other place other that Mesoamerica? How would those departments allocate gifts from donors and who would determine where to put the donation and why? Who allocates those dollars today to Mesoamerica and why? Maybe you could help me understand the process.
• Could a donor give money and the donor tell a University where they want the money spent in a particular place? I hear about a project headed by John Lefgren PhD in Iowa where he is looking for evidence of the city Zarahemla in the Heartland of the USA. Why wouldn’t the Church take an interest in that and allow even a small amount of money to that project? It would be nice to hear from someone in the appropriate Department at BYU on answering these questions as I truly believe the evidence for One Hill Cumorah in NY and Zarahemla being in Iowa D&C 125 should be looked into.
• It is obvious over all these years there has been no evidence of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Here is an article, https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faith about a brother Ferguson who ended up losing his testimony after looking and looking in Mesoamerica for evidence using donated money from the Church and he lost his testimony. What follow-up has there been from that, by our Church do you know?
• Dr. Kevin Price says: July 11, 2021 at 7:50 pm
• Responses to Brother Nelson’s questions above.
• Nelson – Did BYU’s geography Dept. ever speak about geography in any other place other that Mesoamerica?
• Price – First, I should clarify that my BS and MS degrees are from BYU in plant biology, my PhD is in geography from the University of Utah. I never took a class in geography at BYU. I therefore cannot confidently respond to your question above.
• Nelson – How would those departments allocate gifts from donors and who would determine where to put the donation and why?
• Price – For reasons stated above, I cannot speak specifically to your question regarding BYU Department of Geography. I know many of the faculty in geography at BYU and they are exceptionally fine people. I can speak as to how donations were handled in my former Department of Geography at the University of Kansas and Kansas State University. The donor often specifies how they want their funding allocated. This is one reason universities have distinguished professors or endowed chairs. A person or organization that donates funding often tells the university how they want their donation used. They may specify that they want the funds used to hire the best person they can in a particular area of research. Such people are offered impressive salaries to lure them away from other institutions and given funding to run their research program. Sometimes the funding is used to build a new building that is usually named after the donor. I should make clear that I am speaking of donations, not research funding from organizations such as the National Science Foundation or other research funding organizations.
• Nelson – Who allocates those dollars today to Mesoamerica and why? Maybe you could help me understand the process.
• Price – I think most of their funding is coming from private donors. I hope BYU or the Church is not providing them funding or they would not be adhering to their statement of neutrality concerning Book of Mormon geography. If BYU or the Church are providing them funding, then members should be concerned and challenge these funding allocations. People working in or with these organization should not be funded by BYU or the LDS Church if there is to be a neutral stand regarding Book of Mormon geography. This is true for the Departments of Religion/History and the Church Education System. If they are teaching the Mesoamerica Model, they are using Church funding in violation of the neutrality position stated by the Church presidency. Any Church publications should be neutral with respect to artwork, publications and talks given by Church funded individuals or organizations. If they are using Church funding facilities, they must be neutral in what they say and show. If not, the membership should challenge them on the matter and asked that neutrality be observed.
• I should point out too that universities usually charge over 50% overhead rates, meaning for every research dollar a professor is successful in securing, the university gets about half of the funds. This is one of the reasons BYU tried to recruit me away from the University of Kansas (KU). BYU offered me twice my KU salary and KU came back and beat BYU’s offer. I generated about a million dollars in overhead for KU over a 5-year period and they were not going to let me leave without a fight. I turned down BYU’s offer not because of money, but because the department that was recruiting me had decided to eliminate their graduate student program, so I would have no graduate research assistance to help with my research. To me, it was very foolish to do this – they turned the department into the equivalent of a teaching school (I love to teach, but I could not be nearly as successful in winning research funding without a graduate student program to support the efforts. Ironically, BYU was recruiting me for my research funding success.
• Nelson – Could a donor give money and the donor tell a university where they want the money spent in a particular place?
• Price – Yes as I stated above, but if the organization doing the donation or receiving donation is funded by the Church, they cannot violate the Church’s Book of Mormon neutrality position. They would need to tell the donor that they cannot violate the Church’s neutrality position unless they stop receiving funding from the Church and are independently funded such at the those working on the Heartland Model.
• Nelson – I hear about a project headed by John Lefgren PhD in Iowa where he is looking for evidence of the city Zarahemla in the Heartland of the USA. Why wouldn’t the Church take an interest in that and allow even a small amount of money to that project?
• Price – My response is based somewhat on person opinion and not sure knowledge, but I believe the Church has taken many attacks for past support of the Mesoamerica Model (no evidence, DNA, etc.). The Church spent a lot of money in Mesoamerica, and the outcome has never proven the Geography of the Book of Mormon. If the thousands of dollars spent looking for proof of Book of Mormon geography in Mesoamerica has been productive we would not have Mesoamerica supporters using a Fantasy Map in some of our Church educational materials to teach Book of Mormon geography (something that needs to be stopped immediately – it is destroying testimonies of the Book of Mormon).
• If the Book of Mormon geography were known in Mesoamerica, we would have a map showing the location of Zarahemla, the Hill Cumorah, and other locations spoken of in the Book of Mormon – the Mesoamerica model supporters do not have a reality map so they use a fabricated map that looks too much like Mesoamerica and should be stopped NOW. This fantasy map (photo below) is leading many members to believe the events described in the Book of Mormon are only metaphorical. Tell me, why would Moroni in chapter 10 of the Book of Mormon ask us to pray about a metaphor? That would be like asking someone to pray about Alice in Wonderland or Disneyland (at least Disneyland does not need to be plotted on a fantasy map.)
• Nelson – It would be nice to hear from someone in the appropriate Department at BYU on answering these questions as I truly believe the evidence for One Hill Cumorah in NY and Zarahemla being in Iowa D&C 125 should be looked into.
• Price – Do not hold your breath Brother Nelson. The Mesoamerica Model is so entrenched at BYU that I am not sure if there is anyone at BYU who dares challenge it. They would not want to be expelled from the Great and Spacious Building of Academia. I agree that there is only ONE HILL CUMORAH just as has been taught by many Prophets and Apostles of the Church in the past.
• I believe the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith the location of Zarahemla when He gave him the revelation recorded in D&C 125 and when I ask those who challenge our interpretation of the revelation, asking them why did the Lord give this revelation, I never get a response.
• I had a friend in my ward doing his PhD in archaeology at the University of Kansas (I still live in Lawrence, Kansas) and he was specializing in archaeology in Mesoamerica. I remember my surprise when I asked him “Are you finding evidence in Mesoamerica supporting the Book of Mormon geography in this area, and he said, without apology, “no – nothing is there.”
• I see below that you cite the paper in Science Magazine about Thomas Stuart Ferguson losing his testimony after not finding evidence supporting Book of Mormon geography in Mesoamerica. He spent years and fortunes trying to find it and left the Church after he found nothing. Later he was rebaptized, but he never stepped foot in Mesoamerica again. It is time members start looking at the Heartland for answers – the evidence is abundant, and the Spirit confirms what it cannot confirm in Mesoamerica.
• Nelson – It is obvious over all these years there has been no evidence of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Here is an article, https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faith about a brother Ferguson who ended up losing his testimony after looking and looking in Mesoamerica for evidence using donated money from the Church and he lost his testimony. What follow-up has there been from that by our Church, do you know?
• Price – Some things are easier to sweep under the rug, but I am glad the Church finally came out with a neutrality statement on this matter and we as members should expect those working for the Church to honor this position. I am not worried about getting great amounts of funding. I have faith the Lord will provide, and He has done so so far.
• The Lord never seems to make those who are his servants rich. He continues to bring faithful members forward with support right at the times it is most needed. I believe He will continue to support our efforts. I have had so many amazing spiritual experiences since I started working with those doing the work to reveal the Book of Mormon geography in the Promised Land. I wish I could share some of these spiritual events, but right now it would not be appropriate, but please know that I know the Lord is mindful of our efforts and He is opening the doors as fast as we can investigate and document our findings.
• I am using my skills as a plant scientist, geographer, and geospatial scientists (remote sensing, GIS, GPS, statistics) to support this effort. I am working one some amazing projects right now. I am scanning artifacts that have been found in the Book of Mormon lands of the Heartland and building 3D models that we plan to post online in a virtual museum so people can view these artifacts and rotate them in 3D. The work is voluntary just like work done by most of those working on Book of Mormon geography in the Heartland. We are not enriching ourselves but are volunteering our time and talents.

If any have questions, please feel free to write me at my personal email account ([email protected]). Or call me at my mobile number of 785-393-5428. I would love to talk and share with you many exciting things that are now happening.

Dr. Kevin Price Senior Geospatial Analytics Scientist [email protected] 785-393-5428