“It always has been when a man was sent of God with the priesthood and he began to preach the fullness of the gospel, that he was thrust out by his friends, who are ready to butcher him if he teach things which they imagine to be wrong; and Jesus was crucified upon this principle. –History of the Church,” 5:423–25
I had the privledge today to receive a phone call from someone who attended our recent Firm Foundation Conference. I meet some amazing and wonderful people. This particular man I will call Joe, was very excited once again with the words he heard from Wayne, Rod, Tim, Hannah, etc, and he let me know his appreciation for organizing the event. He was very nice and I invited him to assist us even more in future events. I could tell this man has a heart of gold and loves the Lord. This is the part of working with Rod and Hannah and Wayne that I love. We meet such exuberant members who love the Book of Mormon and Joe is no different.
Joe mentioned a long time speaker in our group and heard some troubling things from him recently. (This was not a speaker who spoke at our Sept 23-25 recent event, but one who has spoken many times in the past). I won’t get into specifics, but I was concerned at what Joe told me. This person who he was referring to, is a great man and one who I love. It was troubling to hear about him saying what he did, and he also had a group of 3 or 4 others who tried to recruit Joe into their so-called Remnant or Snuffer type beliefs. Joe sent me the following article which I just posted below with my comments added. There are wolves in our midst. I will not judge this man that Joe mentioned, as I love him, and don’t know for sure if the hearsay is true, but I do know this happens far more often that many realize.
Why did I share this on my blog? I want all of us to Wake Up, and realize that each of us is tempted and can easily follow evil deception if we are not careful. Satan wants us very much and it is amazing to me how many of us fall. This is the 3rd person in the last week I have heard about or who I knew who has done similar things and left the Church for the Remnant or other Apostates who allow much free agency and I guess to sin and act like they can’t do in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These three people I am referring to have one foot in the Church and one foot out. they are Luke Warm and it is sad.
Editor’s Notes are seen throughout the article below.
An offshoot of the Mormon church is drawing away members. But what does the ‘Remnant’ believe — and will it last?
By Peggy Fletcher Stack | Aug. 27, 2017
Sandy • Don’t call Denver Snuffer Jr. a prophet and don’t view his Remnant movement as a church.
Of course, it was the Sandy lawyer’s account about a face-to-face meeting with Jesus that branded him a prophetic figure in the first place. And his 2013 excommunication from the LDS Church for “apostasy” — arguing that after the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, the faith he founded no longer had the exclusive truth or divine authority — seems to have made Snuffer more popular with segments of dissatisfied Mormons.
Before long, hundreds of like-minded seekers traveled to hear him speak — in St. George, Phoenix and Boise — and poured out of their respective LDS pews to form “fellowships,” or small groups, usually gathering in houses and yearning for, well, something more.
They were mostly super-Mormons, zealots who gave their all to the faith. They taught in the LDS Church Educational System or worked at church-owned Brigham Young University. They served in temples. They dissected the scriptures looking for potent but hidden clues to Jesus’ Second Coming or keys to salvation. Some devotees delved into holistic healing, piled up excessive food storage or launched apocalyptic preparations. Others found mainstream Mormon services too boring, too shallow to feed their spiritual hungering. They ached for more celestial manifestations, more holy works, more Holy Writ.
Whatever his listeners’ personal issues, Snuffer’s message seemed to hit home: Mormonism’s hierarchical and bureaucratic structure had abandoned Smith’s heavenly visions and clarion calls to build Zion. Anyone, he said, could a have mystical encounter with deity — like early Latter-day Saints trumpeted — not just the guy at the top.
Editor’s Note: That may be correct, that God and Angels may visit man, as I believe in personal revelation, but the keys of the Church are administered by one man, President Russell M. Nelson. Those who fall away and think they know more than the Lord because some spirit entity, or an angel appearing as light, or Satan himself visits you pretending to be Christ, members must be leery of false prophets like this Snuffer guy.
President Nelson said, “Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”
You don’t have to wonder about what is true. You do not have to wonder whom you can safely trust. Through personal revelation, you can receive your own witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that Joseph Smith is a prophet, and that this is the Lord’s Church. Regardless of what others may say or do, no one can ever take away a witness borne to your heart and mind about what is true. I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.” Revelation for the Church, Revelation for Our Lives by President Russell M. Nelson
The Remnant, as some began to call themselves, would be radically democratic, a “federation of fellowships” with no clear leader, no rigid rules, no prescribed offices, no formal organization — setting themselves apart from what they see as the ultra controlled and controlling LDS administration operating out of a grand old building and a skyscraper in downtown Salt Lake City.
Editor’s Note: Yes, they must feel free from spiritual bureaucracy and bondage to an earthly kingdom and they then falsely set up a personal kingdom that allows them to make up any rules they want. This idea that all roads lead to God is silly in my opinion. Follow the Lord through his Prophets, that is why we have them, so we don’t chase after false doctrine.
By some estimates, the schismatic movement now includes between 5,000 and 10,000 followers in 49 states and several countries — mostly former or current members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some have been disciplined by the church; others continue to participate in the Utah-based faith, while sneaking off to fellowships on the side.
Editor’s Note: This is what concerns me. I personally know three such members of our true Church who pretend to be members and yet they go to Snuffer meetings and pretend they are doing right. My friend Jaren O’Driscoll calls them “One-Footers”, one foot in the gospel and one foot outside the gospel. The Lord calls them “Luke Warm.” See Jaren’s Mormon Traditionalist podcasts here
On Labor Day weekend, Snuffer will be in Boise at what the group is calling a Doctrine of Christ Conference, where hundreds of voters are expected to canonize a new set of scriptures, including a reworking of Mormonism’s foundational text, the Book of Mormon, and its Doctrine and Covenants, a collection mostly of Smith’s revelatory writings.
“The last known major canonization was in 1672 by the Eastern Orthodox Church, so nothing like this has been seen in orthodox or Protestant Christianity in nearly 350 years,” Chris Hamill, a spokesman for the project, says in a news release. “Not even the Mormon church, or any of its offshoots, ever formally canonized (or accepted by common consent of the membership) all of their scriptures. … This is a very important historical development.”
“Things are happening fast,” says Remnant participant Ken Jensen of Sandy. “The work of God is afoot.”
Editor’s Note: Wow I am so excited to see the new Nicaean Creed come out of the Hodge Podge of New Scripture they canonize. (Not!) It is sad to think you can make up your own changes without priesthood authority. What arrogance and deceit they are falling for. My heart aches for them as, They know not what they do.”
How worried are Mormon higher-ups?
The LDS Church declined to comment on Snuffer or his movement, but an internal 2015 presentation to the faith’s apostles (as provided by the website MormonLeaks) lists the Sandy attorney — along with Ordain Women, excommunicated podcaster John Dehlin, nagging church history questions and some church policies — among the individuals and issues leading some members away from the religion.
And many Mormons, especially in places such as Utah County, Davis County, Mesa, Ariz., and Boise, where Latter-day Saints are in the majority, are seeing formerly active members tear up family unity by joining the Snufferites. Their absence in their congregations is obvious and far more dramatic than others who simply slip away.
Editor’s Note: Why do apostates and ex-Mormons leave the Church and then spend more time ripping on it than they spent attending and learning? Because once the Spirit of God leaves, Satan takes over. Unfortunately, I have seen many people now in our church who hate it, and yet go to church so they don’t cause waves at home. It is the time of the wheat and tares. Even in our government today, deception is the weapon of choice for Satan and his minions. Remember, there are only two spirits, one does good and one does evil. I am so blessed to be able to discern most of these false priesthoods.
These folks challenge core Mormon principles and precedents — established over nearly two centuries of LDS expansion — and any notion of inspired organization.
Though theirs is still an all-male priesthood, they reject the Mormon notion that ties it to church office or leadership. Baptism is not about joining a church. They have created a GoFundMe account to buy land for a future temple, though it is unclear exactly what rituals might take place there. Tithing monies remain in local fellowships, used for the poor in their midst, and are not sent to any central headquarters. There isn’t one. They don’t believe polygamy — as Mormons understand it — came from God.
In fact, Snuffer denounces plural marriage and insists Smith never fully practiced it — even in the face of generally accepted historical evidence stating otherwise — though some polygamists belong to fellowships.
Editor’s Note: Those who say that Joseph Smith never lived the Celestial Law of Plurality of Wives doesn’t believe in the scriptures. Why do they say this? Polygamy is such a difficult thing to explain, they just act like its no big deal and pretend like they are so against it that they want others to see them as normal, while we believers that Celestial Marriage is a Higher Law of God, just don’t get it. Joseph restored all things including the same law God directed Abraham and Isaac and David to follow. The people “of this world” just cant understand such a spiritual and higher law with the earthly notions that control them.
The 60-something Snuffer and these believers advocate “a new tide of open religious thought and worship that is highly individual,” Brent Edward writes in a news release about the Boise conference, “involving no paid clergy. … The faithful in this new school of thought believe that God is capable of revealing his word to anyone who earnestly seeks it, and when truth is discovered, it should be added to the canon of inspired writings.”
Editors Note: Personal revelation should stay personal. I say those who know things of the spirit, don’t usually share them. and yet people who don’t know things of the spirit tell every thing to others to build themselves up. Pride goeth before the fall.
Still, the movement’s language and direction are far from clear.
“Remnant of what?” asks Daymon Smith, a Utah Valley University anthropologist who has studied Snuffer’s writings and assertions. “Many different Mormons finish that sentence in often divergent ways, generally in opposition to a larger church; and yet still seem to be part of a single movement.”
Remnant believers are found in two places, Smith says, “on social media, where many ideas can be discussed and wrestled over, or left vague, and in face-to-face meetings, where the rituals and practices of the emerging movement provide a sense of unity, of preserving something.”
Though Snuffer urges all to have their own pipelines to God, he is still the one they look to and quote. They refer to scores of his books, his lectures on Mormonism, his running commentary and blog, and his public speeches.
“Denver’s words are highly regarded, not because he is the leading authority or single prophet to be submitted to,” Smith says, “but because he voices their own sentiments, aspirations and long-running criticisms of the LDS Church.”
Some Remnant adherents believe Snuffer might be the “one mighty and strong” described in Mormon scripture as a powerful figure who will come in the last days to set God’s house in order.
Editor’s Note: Everyone who hates the church and leaves it seems to say they are the one mighty and strong. It is silly to think of a name like Denver Snuffer could actually be a church of the Lord’s, or a correct way of worship. I know they don’t claim a name of their church, but to follow a strange name like Denver Snuffer by itself is weird. And the pride it must take to think such a small few, tens of thousands of people will be saved, while 8 billion are damned is very strange indeed. In my opinion there are many righteous people in the world that are more righteous than 80% of our members. The Church is a guide to assist us and church was made for man to direct us. Without the priesthood and Prophets we would have nothing. The Lord wants love and obedience and whether in the True Church or not, the righteous of this world will become official members of Christ’s Church during the millennium I an confident.
Forty years in the faith
As a young Air Force cadet in New Hampshire, the nonbelieving Snuffer found Mormonism and was entranced by founder Smith’s words in D&C 76, offering a glimpse of three heavens in the eternities.
“Here in majestic simplicity was a vision of things which had never been revealed about the afterlife,” he writes in a description of his conversion, “and the definition of ‘many mansions’ which was both clear and soul stirring,”
On Sept. 10, 1973, Snuffer, a self-confessed sinner and skeptic, plunged into the waters of LDS baptism and soon began an intense study of Mormon beliefs. For the next few decades, he taught the weekly Gospel Doctrine class in six wards (or congregations) in four states, plus spoke at BYU Education Week and at the University of Utah’s LDS Institute of Religion.
Editor’s Note: In order to speak at Education Week you are required to have a higher education. That is a big reason Rod Meldrum, Wayne May, Hannah Stoddard, and others don’t get invited. That makes it easy to exclude them. Remember in the Church it is the Intellects, Professors, and other Scholars who direct things like Education Week, not the Prophet and Apostles. I truly believe that the 15 Brethren trust their professors and intellects very much and hope an pray for them to make correct decisions. When some thing is approved with a stamp of approval by the First Presidency, it doesn’t mean it is scripture, it is just good evaluated material that is suitable for Saints to read. The Ensign, Joseph Smith Papers, Saints, are all great to read, but they are not doctrine. Did you know we have found many concerning ideas in the book Saints? See Here, Here, and Here. I think the book “Saints” is great for many in the Church, but is does have some definite flaws that may be concerning.
Meanwhile, he earned a law degree from BYU, married, divorced, remarried and reared nine children from both marriages. Along the way, he was drawn to Mormonism’s more esoteric theories.
In 2006, the lawyer published “The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil,” which became an overnight sensation with Mormons who desired more mystical interactions. Within four years, he was attracting hundreds to his speeches up and down the Mormon corridor.
At least two volumes and many sermons after his foray into deep theological waters, the now-ponytailed preacher produced “Passing the Heavenly Gift,” a tome which spells out Snuffer’s reading of Mormon history based on scripture, including his hypothesis about the church losing its way after Smith perished. The future Remnant leader’s Mormon stake (or regional) president demanded that he pull back the book. The writer refused.
He learned he had been excommunicated by his ecclesiastical leaders in Sandy on Sept. 10, 2013 – 40 years to the day after his baptism.
“I was not a rebel,” he says in a recent interview. “I suspect there are people in my home ward and stake today who are unaware that I’ve ever written a book.”
Being exed didn’t change his commitment to Mormonism, Snuffer says. He continued to attend LDS services with his wife, Stephanie, while stepping up his speaking schedule — and telling everyone who would listen, as he wrote on his blog at the time: “I will not start a church. Period. Won’t. Not now. Not later. Never.”
Editor’s Note: I guess the thrill of leading his own group gave in. I won’t judge him, buttis seems so easy for the apostates to change their minds and follow their heart as they claim it is God they are following.
Now the couple are all in with the Remnant.
Two years or so after the LDS Church booted him out, Snuffer joined forces with some followers who wanted to expunge Mormon scriptures of anything that they couldn’t trace explicitly to Smith. Gone were D&C sections that talked about church organization, priesthood offices and polygamy, replaced by a package of Snuffer revelations and tucked into a new volume known as Teachings and Commandments.
“Conspiracies have corrupted the records beginning among the Jews, and again following the time of my apostles, and yet again following the time of Joseph and Hyrum [Smith],” Snuffer says God told him. “As you have labored with the records, you have witnessed the alterations and insertions, and your effort to recover them pleases me and is of great worth.”
I believe this Snuffer movement, John Dehlin, Mormon Stories, CES Letter, and any other apostate groups are just as bad as Communism. See my blog here;
Wine and worship
On a recent Sunday, a dozen members of a Remnant fellowship lounge on couches in Ken Jensen’s Sandy living room, with about the same number of children, some in arms, some sprawled across laps and some crawling on the floor. Print shirts, pants on women, and flip-flops give it a casual feel.
A large staircase snakes up to the second floor, with black letters affixed to the wall, saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them — I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
The bearded dad, a father of 11 who was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 2015 for apostasy, suggests they sing hymns, beginning with children’s pieces. So Taylor Child moves to a piano and plays “Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam.” After that, it’s the Mormon classic “I Am a Child of God” and “Jesus Once Was a Little Child.”
While waiting for one woman to go to a nearby store for a baby bottle, the group discusses a Remnant baptism from the previous night. By now, scores of former Mormons have been rebaptized as a symbol of their newfound beliefs, but not to become a member of a church.
Child, who has been with the movement for three years, conducted the ritual for his 8-year-old son, Aidan, and invited his Mormon parents to attend. It took place at a Saratoga Springs hot spring, by full immersion.
“There was a really good spirit there,” he says before quipping: “It was good exposure for my parents so they could see we are not all Satan worshippers.”
Editor’s Note: See how good Satan is? Remember there are only two spirits, one good and one evil. If they aren’t following God they are following Satan. So based on bias I am following God and they aren’t. I know the Lord will judge one day. I will take my chances and build my faith on Christ and the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not on re-constructed scriptures and fake baptisms. May the Lord forgive them as for me. I do love and forgive them, but ultimate judgement by The Savior will determine all of our fates.
At 79, LaPrele Jordan has been looking for a spiritual home in various faith groups. She left the LDS Church in 1990 to join James Harmston’s breakaway — and eventually polygamous — sect in Manti, but fled that, too.
“It’s been a long, long, long journey to find you guys,” says Jordan, who was among those baptized the day before. “I’ve finally found where I belong, and it’s so wonderful.”
More singing and then comes the sacrament.
Two piano benches are placed in the middle of the room. Bottles of wine (with grape juice for the children) and baskets of artisan bread are set upon them. They kneel and close their eyes. Some hold their hands with upturned, cupped palms or reach their arms heavenward.
Child offers traditional Mormon communion prayers, except saying “wine” rather than water — as modern Latter-day Saints do. He and others tear slabs of the bread. Each worshipper takes a hunk. The wine and grape juice are poured into plastic cups and served.
After all partake, they move on to discuss the new scriptures as well as a draft of the movement’s emerging “guidelines and standards.”
Jensen found Snuffer’s work in 2010, back when he was a practicing Latter-day Saint, and felt it was “over my head.”
Now the insurance salesman grasps Snuffer’s message and says he is amazed at “how incredibly patient and long-suffering Denver has been … and how willing to let others grow in understanding.”
As religious movements go, this one is in its infancy. Now comes the hard part: finding a balance between individuality and organization.
What’s the appeal?
It was the Book of Mormon that propelled Jeff Savage into the Remnant movement.
Savage was born and reared in the LDS Church in California, often serving in leadership positions. He spent two years proselytizing for his faith in southern Chile, met his wife, Emily, at BYU, and then married her in a Mormon temple.
When Savage went to the University of Illinois for graduate work, he discovered Snuffer’s “Second Comforter.”
“It was like finding a drink of water in the desert,” the gentle scholar says. “Denver interweaves scripture and prose together and does so masterfully.”
Editor’s Note: Yes isn’t it so wonderful to drink from the cup of Denver? Wow, it seems incredibly shallow, but when people become disillusioned from the true gospel, they do funny things. It is amazing to me how silly all of this sounds, but it is definitely a problem we all need to be aware of and stay focused on the teachings of President Nelson, the Scriptures and especially on the doctrine and Spirit of the Lord.
Savage returned to the Mormon scripture he had read maybe 25 times before. This go-around, he saw things he had never before noticed.
“It talks about the last days before Christ’s return,” Savage says. “It describes people who care about appearance and riches and churches ‘built up unto themselves.’ It says those churches have gone astray.”
Editor’s Note: This is all very true about riches. We as members of the church have gravitated toward things of this world and we love our money. “But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.” Jacob 2: 18-19.
I am sure these Snufferites see the worldliness of other active members of our church and are distraught to see such lavishness and wealth among our members. This is a difficult challenge we are facing and I believe the very elect are being deceived along with the not so elect. I pray so often for the humility needed to stay faithful to the Lord and His kingdom today. My heart aches when we lose a soul to evil or to an apostate group.
Reading along with his wife, Savage says, the couple concluded such verses were “talking about us. Our church.”
They didn’t want to abandon the only faith they had ever known, so they kept their observations private and, after moving to South Carolina, took in both Mormon and Remnant services.
Editor’s Note: My eyes have been open during this past Firm Foundation Conference. I have witnessed several people in our little group of seemingly good members of the Church, who are dabbling in apostate groups. When I find them it is my obligation to nicely let them go and aks them to not attend our event again. Rod and I try very hard to select only people that have a good message. However, we have a great need to change things up even more. Our Conferences need to be more focused on the Book of Mormon and Christ, and less on the peripheral tenants that are not needed. We are working on making that happen.
Meanwhile, Savage was asked to oversee the effort to create some “guidelines and standards” for the burgeoning movement.
Fast-forward to a hot summer night in early August at Salt Lake Community College’s Sandy campus. There, Savage presents his draft to a group of about 40 representatives — about half are women — from fellowships across Utah, with others tuning in via Skype.
Though there is a patina of civility, collegiality and cohesion, serious divisions percolate beneath the surface and occasionally erupt, including after a kneeling prayer to discover God’s will.
It’s not surprising, though, given that, to these believers, words matter — a lot — and each is entitled to hear heaven’s promptings.
Debating revelation
During the nearly five-hour meeting, every word in Savage’s document is scrutinized, assessed, challenged and voted upon.
The first long debate is about whether to allow the words “or grape juice” to be included in the section describing how the fellowships should perform the sacrament.
[ Editor’s Note; Picking at the little nuances? Not worrying about the bigger things of the Lord?]
Snuffer says it should be “wine,” one attendee argues, so why allow grape juice? Another woman insists that those coming out of Mormonism or conservative traditions might be uncomfortable with wine. Why not allow grape juice? After more than 20 minutes, it is added.
For these representatives, the LDS health code known as the “Word of Wisdom,” which forbids alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea, is just that — wisdom, counsel, advice. It is not a requirement as it has become in Mormonism.
The longest and most vociferous debate is over the inclusion of four words: “Thus saith the Lord.”
Savage, who sits patiently by like a modern-day Thomas Jefferson watching others rip apart his Declaration of Independence, defends his use of those words, noting they were dictated by God.
Smith used the same “thus saith the Lord” phrase in sections of Mormonism’s D&C, but he was believed to be the only “prophet, seer and revelator” who could speak for God to the whole church.
In this case, these words came exclusively to Savage. Could his personal revelation stand for the collective fellowships, they wonder, or only for him?
After some time, Savage acknowledges to the group that the first attribution to the Lord is a passage that came to Snuffer. Savage was reluctant to make that known because Snuffer has declared he was not involved in the guideline-writing process.
After more than an hour, the group votes on the phrase, and, though not all agree, no one opposes it. Other parts of the document are approved, disapproved or tabled
During the lengthy discussions, Snuffer’s name is invoked again and again as authoritative.
The notion of all fellowshippers getting their own revelations, including ones that may contradict others, is still an unsettling, new idea, Savage says. ”We are transitioning out of revering the LDS hierarchy but some still feel they can only trust Denver.”
Editor’s Note: This seems to be a real convenient Church. All have correct revelation. That is ridiculous. Yes we can all have individual manifestations of the spirit, by why would God give one revelation to one person that is contradictory of the other revelation? Satan must be in control is what I think. Please people wake up. The Lord is coming soon.
Though he maintains he is just one voice among many, Snuffer will lay out what the group’s approach to history and scripture should be going forward in his “Prayer for Covenant.”
The words of it, Snuffer writes on a recent blog, “came by revelation from the Lord to me alone.”
But don’t call him a prophet.
