I love the expression to “Sally Forth.” It seems like a military saying to move quickly from place to place. It seems the Gaddianton Robbers always “Sallied Forth.” I believe it may be difficult to do this on top of a large volcano or mountain top. I’m just saying.
“And the Lamanites, thus seeing our forces increase daily, and provisions arrive for our support, they began to be fearful, and began to sally forth.” Alma 56:29
“Began to come down and to sally forth from the hills, and out of the mountains, and the wilderness, and their strongholds, and their secret places, and began to take possession of the lands” 3 Nep 4:1
Free Dictionary defines, sally forth
Verb 1. sally forth – set out in a sudden, energetic or violent manner sally out. take off, start out, set forth, set off, set out, start, depart, part – leave; “The family took off for Florida”
sally (ˈsӕli) – plural ˈsallies – noun
a sudden act of rushing out (eg from a fort) to make an attack. sally forth
(of soldiers) to rush out to make an attack. They sallied forth against the enemy.
Wikipedia says, Sally Forth may refer to:
‘sally forth’, a deployment of a military unit from a stronghold through a sally port
My good friend Kevin Price asked for an article answering the Meso idea of Mountains. This is my answer called “Sally Forth?
How High Is a Hill?
Up until about 50 years ago, hills that were at least 1,000 feet high were considered to be mountains. But geologists, scientists who study landforms and rocks, couldn’t agree about the height, so in the United States, the 1,000 foot rule is no longer used.
In the United Kingdom, a new rule states that a hill over 2,000 feet high is a mountain. Because technology has improved since most of the hills were measured, geologists are re-measuring those that were close to 2,000 feet. As a result, some hills have become mountains and some mountains are now called hills! Source
The Appalachian Mountains May Have Once Been as Tall as the Himalayas
by KEN JENNINGSJuly 17, 2017
This is an interesting article but I don’t believe in the dating methods used etc. It’s just interesting to refer to the title as it makes you think.
When Does A Hill Become A Mountain?
The most common question. Always gets asked too when I guide people on the Yorkshire 3 Peaks. Are we climbing mountains or hills here? I will talk about ‘peaks’ later. See, complicated.
Try to be subjective yourself. I know most people would say, mountains are steeper, higher, rockier maybe and most likely part of ranges. Then hills are grassier, lower lying, less steep, most likely more free standing.
Geographers of old tried to define it. They set the bar at 1,000 feet (304.8 meters). That is very low. You remember the film ‘The Englishman Who Went Up A Hill But Came Down A Mountain’ starring Hugh Grant? The old story was created because of this arbitrary height being made. The villagers who thought they lived by a mountain suddenly lived by a hill and put more rocks on top to make it a mountain. This defined height was largely abandoned at least by the 1970s.
If you want to look at it technically the current written down definitions are (in the UK):
- By geologists and Oxford English Dictionary – A mountain is at least 2,000 feet (or 610 metres) above sea level.
- By the UK Government (just to be awkward or more likely metric) – A mountain is above 600 metres (1,969 ft). They have to define a height to be able to create rules for freedom of access.
So YES! With the smallest of the Yorkshire 3 Peaks being Pen-Y-Ghent at 694 metres. The Yorkshire 3 peaks are all mountains. Plus many of the Pennine Hills are in fact mountains, technically.
So – Yes a great cause for confusion is there are many mountains are called hills. For example in the Highlands of Scotland you have the Torridon Hills, with height ranges of 700 to 902m. Definitely mountains.
We know there are many answers to a simple question of what is the difference between the Hills and or Mountains spoken of in the Book of Mormon. I utilize much information from Jonathan Neville who wort a fantastic book, Moroni’s America. Purchase Here:
Mountains in the Book of Mormon
“In the Old World, Nephi refers to mountains from his own experience as well as in quotations from Isaiah. In the promised land, however, no mountains are mentioned until the Book of Helaman (apart from Jacob’s vague reference [184] and the Isaiah quotations in Abinadi’s confrontation [185].
During all the travels between the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla, during the missionary journeys of the sons of Mosiah and the sons of Helaman (Lehi and Nephi), during all the wars described in Alma and Helaman—no one mentions mountains.
There are hills, however. The destruction in 3 Nephi created “hills and valleys” (3 Nephi 9:8). Ammon and his brethren taught people “upon their hills” (Alma 26:29).
Several hills are named.
– the hill “north of the land Shilom” (Mosiah 7:5, 16, 11:13)
– the hill Manti (Alma 1:15)
– the hill Amnihu (Alma 2:15-17),
– the hill Onidah (Alma 32:4),
– the hill Riplah (Alma 43:31-35)
– the hill Ephraim (Ether 7:9)
– the hill Comnor (Ether 14:28)
– the hill Ramah (Ether 15:11)
– the hill Shim (Mormon 1:3; 4:23)
– the hill Cumorah (Mormon 6:2, 6, 11)
The text also implies changes in elevation by describing places as being up or down in relation to one another. Riverbeds necessarily change in elevation for the water to flow.
But no mountains.
Until we get to Helaman.
The absence of mountains suggests that when we’re searching for the setting of the Book of Mormon, we would look not for terrain dominated by tall, steep mountains, but instead for a place characterized by hills and rivers and valleys, with ample flat areas suitable for growing crops.
“ …There were a certain number of the dissenters from the people of Nephi… being stirred up to anger… therefore they commenced a war with their brethren. And they did commit murder and plunder; and then they would retreat back into the mountains, and into the wilderness and secret places, hiding themselves that they could not be discovered… in the space of not many years, they became an exceedingly great band of robbers; and they did search out all the secret plans of Gadianton; and thus they became robbers of Gadianton. Now behold, these robbers did make great havoc, yea, even great destruction among the people of Nephi, and also among the people of the Lamanites.” Helaman 11 :24-27
But what about the mountains mentioned in Helaman (as well as in 3 Nephi)?
In all cases, the mountains are mentioned in connection with the Gadianton robbers.
– The robbers “commit murder and plunder; and then they would retreat back into the mountains… hiding themselves” (Helaman 11:25).
– The people were “obliged to return…out of the mountains” because “of those robbers who infested the mountains” (Helaman 11:31).
– The robbers “dwelt upon the mountains” (3 Nephi 1:27).
– The robbers were driven by the Nephites “into the mountains” (3 Nephi 2:17).
– The people wanted to “go up upon the mountains… that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them” (3 Nephi 3:20).
– The robbers “began to come down and to sally forth from the hills and out of the mountains” (3 Nephi 4:1).
What kind of mountains do these verses describe?
These mountains are habitable; the robbers dwell “upon” them in hiding places. Yet they are in close in proximity to the Nephite communities. The robbers can “sally forth” out of them, a term that means a sudden rushing out, as from a hiding place.
Nephite and Lamanite communities were located along rivers, with nearby fields of crops. Therefore these mountains would have to be in proximity to rivers, yet also in an area that supports extensive agriculture.
The 1828 Webster’s Dictionary gives this definition of mountain:
MOUNTAIN, noun [Latin adjective, montanus.] A large mass of earth and rock, rising above the common level of the earth or adjacent land, but of no definite altitude. We apply mountain to the largest eminences on the globe; but sometimes the word is used for a large hill. In general, mountain denotes an elevation higher and larger than a hill; as the Altaic mountains in Asia, the Alps in Switzerland, the Andes in South America, the Allegheny mountains in Virginia, the Catskill in New York, the White mountains in New Hampshire, and the Green mountains in Vermont. The word is applied to a single elevation, or to an extended range. [186] (emphasis added)
The description in the text implies something more like “large hills” than “the largest eminences on the globe.”
A verse in the Doctrine and Covenants supports this interpretation. “Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah…” (D&C 117:8). [187]
Adam-ondi-Ahman is located in Daviess County, northern Missouri. The “mountains” there are about 270 feet in elevation, only about 50 feet higher than the river bed. If the elevations there are “mountains,” then the areas along the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers would certainly qualify as “mountains.” The land adjacent to these rivers includes elevations even higher than those in Adam-ondi-Ahman.
At Keokuk, Iowa, the water level now is around 480 feet, with nearby elevations at around 650 feet. Twenty miles south of St. Louis, the river bed is around 400 feet, with elevations on both sides that reach 750-800 feet. Modern communications towers are found at the peaks, such as Buck Knob near Festus, MO that is less than 2,000 feet from the current path of the river.
These mountains contain caves and steep ridges that would make good hiding places. In fact, river pirates took advantage of such hiding places along the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers as late as 1830. The efforts to find and eradicate these river pirates is comparable to the efforts of the Nephites and Lamanites to send armies into the mountains to destroy the Gadianton robbers.
And it came to pass that it was expedient that there should be a stop put to this work of destruction; therefore they sent an army of strong men into the wilderness and upon the mountains to search out this band of robbers, and to destroy them (Helaman 11:28).
The descriptions of mountains in the Book of Mormon are consistent with the terrain throughout the proposed setting in Georgia, Tennessee, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, and New York.” Moroni’s America page 203 to 205
Notes
[184] Jacob 4:6 “Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.” No further explanation is given. It’s not even clear whether Jacob actually commanded the trees, mountains or waves of the sea or just cited these as examples of what they could do if they wanted, given the power of their faith. In a similar way, Nephi, son of Helaman, was given power that “if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done” (Helaman 10:9), but there is no account of him actually exercising this power. Helaman 12 cites moving mountains as within the power of the Lord, again with no specific example. Samuel the Lamanite prophesied about mountains (Helaman 14:23) but there is no account of the fulfillment of that prophecy except for the city of Moronihah which was buried with earth that became a mountain (3 Nephi (8:10).
[185] Mosiah 12:21, “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings; that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good; that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth,” and Mosiah 15:18, “And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people.”
[186] 1828 Websters Dictionary
[187] Elder Bruce R. McConkie commented on this passage: “There is a great valley there in which the righteous will assemble; and where there are valleys, the surrounding elevations are called mountains.” Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man (Deseret Book Co., 1982), p. 578-588. Some LDS scholars dispute this interpretation. The website fairmormon.org makes this comment: “However, this verse raises more questions than it answers—there are no mountains of note in Missouri. So, was the geography more expansive than Joseph or the early saints presumed?” FAIR Mormon In my view, whoever wrote this comment at fairmormon is creating his/her own requirement for the text. The verse, as written, is perfectly fine; there are mountains at Adam-ondi-Ahman, according to the ordinary use of the English language.
Many Mountains Laid Low?
“Samuel condemns the people for having their hearts set on their riches, so the judgment that takes place in 3 Nephi is appropriate. These cities are buried in the earth and the water, and covered with earth, and burned—completely destroying the material wealth that the people valued over living the gospel.
I will address the actual destruction in the chapter on 3 Nephi [below], but it’s important to note that Samuel’s prophecy is not necessarily limited to the immediate vicinity of Zarahemla. For example, Samuel prophesied that “there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great” (Helaman 14:23). Yet when the destruction is described in 3 Nephi, only one mountain is mentioned, and it is formed when “the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah that in the place of the city there became a great mountain” (3 Nephi 8:10). This suggests fulfillment of Samuel’s prophecy in other parts of the world; even in the case of the mountain on Moronihah, a “great mountain” is not the same as a mountain “whose height is great.” Moroni’s America page 209
3 Nephi 4-7
“The proposed geography explains how the Gadianton robbers responded to the Nephite tactic.
And it came to pass that in the latter end of the eighteenth year those armies of robbers had prepared for battle, and began to come down and to sally forth from the hills, and out of the mountains, and the wilderness, and their strongholds, and their secret places, and began to take possession of the lands, both which were in the land south and which were in the land north, and began to take possession of all the lands which had been deserted by the Nephites, and the cities which had been left desolate (3 Nephi 4:1), emphasis added.
What Mountains Make Sense?
How could the Gadianton’s during a battle “sally forth” and “come out of mountains” into the wilderness, if it referred to a huge mountain? It makes sense that the Gadianton’s came forth quickly and surprisingly back and forth from hills and small caves and from bleak wilderness to rolling hills to avoid the Nephites. If they were to take possession of cities by sallying forth, what city is build on a mountain top? cities are usually in valley’s or on small hills with valley’s surrounding them. No one would think that mountains in the Book of Mormon were similar to a large volcano (not even mentioned) or in the Rocky Mountains or even in the Allegheny mountains. You would be exhausted in battle just going up and down large mountains.
The land south and the land north are relative terms, centered on the land where the Nephites had gathered. Because they deserted their cities, the Gadianton robbers could take possession of them, but because the Nephites had taken all their crops and animals and left nothing behind, the Gadiantons had no food. They couldn’t plant crops or they would be vulnerable to Nephite attacks.” Moroni’s America page 215
Hills and Mountains
“There is no indication in the text that Alma crossed a mountain, let alone mountainous terrain. Mosiah 24:25 speaks of Alma’s group departing a valley and traveling through “wilderness,” not “mountainous terrain.” A valley is a “hollow or low area of land between hills or mountains.” A valley can also be a “low extended plain, usually alluvial, penetrated or washed by a river.” [282]
In fact, the Book of Mormon text contains only 13 references to mountains in the new world, none in connection with Alma’s route. Several references involve the Gadianton robbers who “dwelt upon the mountains” and in the wilderness (Helaman and 3 Nephi), but there is no description of the mountains themselves. (As an aside, dwelling “upon” and sending an army “upon the mountains” suggests a more flat and livable “mountain” than the steep mountains one finds in Mesoamerica. One would dwell “upon” something more like a large hill than “upon” a volcano. [283] Samuel the Lamanite made a specific prediction: “And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great” (Helaman 14:23). It’s anyone’s guess how high terrain would have to be to qualify as “great,” especially compared with the land’s former valley elevation. However, 3 Nephi only mentions a single “great mountain” with no reference to height (8:10).
The term “mountain” is relative; it refers to a “natural elevation of the earth’s surface having considerable mass, generally steep sides, and a height greater than that of a hill.” [284] There is another scriptural reference to mountains that may offer additional insight. On July 8, 1838, Joseph Smith received a revelation at Far West, Missouri, canonized as Section 117. Verse 8 reads, “Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt, that you should covet that which is but the drop, and neglect the more weighty matters?” Adam-ondi-Ahman is located in Davies County, Missouri, about 70 miles north of Kansas City. Section 117 refers to “mountains” in this area, suggesting a possible example of how the Book of Mormon uses the term. The Book of Mormon distinguishes between hills and mountains without clearly delineating between the two, raising the inference that the difference is a continuum, a matter of degree or perspective. (E.g., 3 Nephi 4:1). The highest elevation at Adam-ondi-Ahman currently is 124 feet above the river—a site named Spring Hill in Section 116, which suggests ambiguity about the terms “hill” and “mountain” as used in these scriptures.” Moroni’s America page 322
Notes
[281] “Valley,” Webster’s 1828 dictionary, http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/valley
[282] Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines the term this way: “A large mass of earth and rock, rising above the common level of the earth or adjacent land, but of no definite altitude. We apply mountain to the largest eminences on the globe; but sometimes the word is used for a large hill…The word is applied to a single elevation, or to an extended range.”
[283] See“Mountain”
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/mountain
[284] American Heritage dictionary, https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=mountain
| Filter #2 | 3 Nephi 8:11-13 |
| The configuration of the lands cannot have been modified by catastrophic geological events in the historic past. Ancient geographical features were for practical purposes the same as we see today; for example, references to the narrow neck and narrow pass were the same in Moroni’s day as in the day of General Moroni, several centuries earlier.” No credible evidence exists from real-world research that justifies believing that major physical events have drastically changed the present boundaries of the seas or other major physiographic features in the Western Hemisphere within the period of human habitation. In fact, evidence from archaeology contradicts the idea of any major change in the shape or extent of the lands, since archaeological studies in all Western Hemisphere land areas show uninterrupted human occupation over thousands of years. | 11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward. 12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds and the thunderings and the lightnings and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; 13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. 16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away. 17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth. 18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. |
The side-by-side comparison shows that there are two key elements integral to the purpose of this filter which are not expressly stated in the filter itself.
First, while there was there was “a great and terrible destruction in the land southward,” “there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward” (emphasis added). No Mesoamerican proponents have explained why there would be a difference between the two areas. Sorenson [288] and others [289]assert the destruction was caused by earthquakes and volcanic activity throughout the area, with no geological basis for distinguishing between north and south. Setting aside the text’s lack of any mention of volcanoes in 1,000 years of history in Mesoamerica—itself a stunning omission given the dominance of volcanoes in that area—there is no geological or historical basis for a difference in destruction between the north and the south in the Mesoamerican model. The terrain and geological formations are continuous. At best, one could argue the text is describing an epicenter—or volcanic eruption—in the north, but if that’s the case, how could there be “great and terrible destruction” in the south? The impact of earthquakes and volcanoes drops quickly with distance, but shaking from earthquakes is stronger in areas that have softer surface layers, such as accumulated sediment. When an earthquake strikes, “as the thickness of sediment increases, so too does the amount of shaking.” [290] Mountain areas experience less shaking than sediment areas; shaking is amplified where sediments are thicker. When the text differentiates between the impact in the northern and southern lands, it implies a difference in the type of terrain and geology between north and south.
In contrast to Mesoamerica, the American setting offers a sharp distinction between the land southward and the land northward. The land southward is dominated by the Appalachian Mountains in present-day Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia. The risk of earthquake there is far less than along the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, areas that extend into the land northward and are characterized by thick sediment. Actual historical accounts of the New Madrid earthquakes in 1811-1812—the biggest earthquakes in American history—describe conditions much like those described in 3 Nephi. The damage was far worse along the Mississippi River than in the mountains of Tennessee, just as expected from the respective geology. This is also consistent with the distinction made in 3 Nephi 8. In the earthquake of 1895, damage was documented along the Ohio and Upper Mississippi Rivers (part of the River Sidon), while shaking was felt but no damage experienced in eastern Tennessee and Alabama and Georgia. Moroni’s America page 325
Notes
[288] Mormon’s Codex, pp. 638-653.
[289] E.g., Alvin K. Benson, “Geological Upheaval and Darkness in 3 Nephi 8-10,” The Book of Mormon: 3 Nephi 9-30, This is My Gospel, Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds, (Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, Bookcraft, Inc., Salt Lake City, Utah 1993): 59-72.
[290] “Earthquake Shaking-Accounting for ‘Site Effects,’” Southern California Earthquake Center, http://www.scec.org/phase3/overview.html
Think of it this way. Large mountains are beautiful to look at and wonderful to visit and enjoy in nature. These same large beautiful mountains are a huge impediment when trying to live, work, survive and battle. The Land of Adam-Ondi-Ahman IS THE PROMISED LAND, not the top of Kings peak in Utah or in the Andes Mountains. I can imagine a Garden paradise in the beautiful valleys, trees, ponds, streams and wildlife, not in the huge hard to get to mountains with rugged terrain. That wouldn’t be peaceful like a garden. I report, you decide.
