Secondary Evidence
I think there is importance when the Prophet and Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Brethren are being neutral on geography, evolution and other difficult issues. They want us to gain our own witness to secondary information. They have given us sound doctrine and that is what we should focus on. I know through the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true. However, I love to seek for other truth like secondary evidence, and as Moroni has said “I may know the truth of all things”
I believe the Land of Promise spoken of in the Book of Mormon is the United States of America. The Constitution was created by the Lord, Adam and Eve were placed on this same land and the New Jerusalem will be on this same land. No need for me to check out Mesoamerica anymore as I did for 40 years.
Just like evolution. I don’t believe we came from an ape and I know that matter cannot come from nothing. I don’t have to look into science to figure this out, but by the witness of what the scriptures tell us.
I don’t expect President Nelson to come right out and tell me where the Book of Mormon events happened, or if we came from an ape, I know through sound reasoning the answer that makes most sense to me. Now if the Brethren say otherwise, I would always listen to them first, and then pray about it, but in my opinion the Church is neutral on secondary evidence that exist, to help each of us individually come to a knowledge of the “truth of all things” by personal revelation, as promised in the Book of Mormon. I don’t need to be commanded in all things!
There is an article from the SL Tribune about Richard Bushman that says he believes the Book of Mormon is RIGHT, not TRUE. Here. Bushman was also agnostic when he went on his mission. I want to share with you some important differences I see between the belief system of many Progressive Mormon’s (Like Bushman) and other Traditionalist Mormon’s. See my blog here for more detail about An Apologist. As I discuss things below I am not claiming to speak for any other member of M2C, (Mesoamerican Two Hill Cumorah theory or Heartlander, (Believers that events of the Book of Mormon began in the Heartland of North America), and I am definitely not speaking on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love the Lord and His Church and I am a lifelong member in good standing.
I define myself as a Traditional & Conservative Apologist as well as many of my Heartland Geography friends would. I am also Traditional on Social, Financial, Political and Constitutional values.
Traditional is an advocate of maintaining tradition, especially so as to resist change. A person who believes the old ways are best. Truth cannot be changed. God’s in charge not man as a generalization. Judgmental of unusual behavior.
Conservative is a person who is averse to change and holds traditional values. A person favoring free enterprise, private ownership, and socially traditional ideas and an adherence to God and His principles.
Apologist is a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people.” A person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial. Both M2C and Heartlanders are Apologists.
Most believers on the Mesoamerican two Cumorah Theory (M2C) belief of geography, I would say are Liberal, & Progressive Apologists.
Liberal a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise. One who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways. Man’s more in charge not God, as a generalization. Less judgmental of norms.
Progressive a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare. Favoring or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas. Developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step until traditional values become more liberal or progressive.
Difficult Questions and Answers
Many Heartlanders are Conservative or believe in the Traditional history of the Church. Many in the M2C camp are more Liberal or Intellectual and believe in the Revisionist history of the Church. Most Traditional Mormons would answer questions about sensitive issues similar to me as follows:
DNA- We believe there may be Hebrew DNA in many Native American Indians near the Great Lakes of the Algonquian and Iroquois tribes. Article Here: Only Asian DNA has been found amongst the people of South, and Central America and amongst other Western Native Americans of the United States and Alaska. We believe most of those living in the South Pacific Islands are of Israelite blood, but we haven’t found DNA yet. M2C believe the Asian DNA found in Central America is because the Asian population over took any Hebrew DNA that may have existed as during the time of Lehi.
Evolution: We do not believe a cat could evolve into a dog and we don’t believe an ape can evolve into Man. We do believe in Evolution defined as change or adaptation within a species. Most intellectuals believe we evolved from an ape and change can happen outside of a species.
Translation of the Gold Plates: We believe they were translated by the power of God with Joseph using the breastplate and two clear stones in a silver bow (Like spectacles) that were found in the same hill as the plates. Most M2C followers believe the stone in the hat method of translation (SITH). They believe Joseph Smith never looked at the gold plates to translate.
Seer Stones: We believe Joseph had several seer stones that were used for faithful things by Joseph, but Joseph did not use a seer stone in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon. If he did use this method, he would be just reading words from a seer stone that someone gave him to be written down so he wouldn’t have “translated” the plates but just would have dictated the words he saw in the stone to Oliver. Joseph could have used any item if he never had to look at the plates and Nephi and Moroni would never of had to write and preserve the plates. Joseph also used the Urim and Thummim to translate parts of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Bible and other books.
Politics- We believe the United States is the Promised Land of the Book of Mormon as Elder Perry said, “The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon—a place where divine guidance directed inspired men to create the conditions necessary for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Elder L. Tom Perry Ensign Dec. 2012. We are mostly very conservative, love the US Constitution and our Founding Fathers. We believe in the right to bear arms and freedom of speech. Most of us don’t agree with RINO Republican’s (Republican in Name only), and we believed John F. Kennedy had great visions on taxes and freedom, but we disagree with most Democratic platforms today. Most of us love the great freedoms that Trump has given us as he has kept his word, as few politicians do. We also believe in the values of Ronald Reagan. We highly respect George Washington, and other great founding fathers, and we love Abraham Lincoln. We disagree strongly with Woodrow Wilson. We don’t approve of the socialized version of government. We don’t agree with Socialism, Marxism, Communism, Totalitarianism, or Progressivism. We believe rights can only come from God not from Government, “Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
Polygamy: We believe Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were following the commandments to practice polygamy just as Abraham and others were instructed. Satan just uses this highly controversial idea to get us to doubt things. Only about 3% of the entire church ever practiced polygamy. We believe when the Lord commands us, we should listen. Spiritual marriage is a higher law of God and has little or nothing to do with a physical relationship.
Science: We believe the dinosaurs lived during the Old Testament with Adam and were killed during the great world wide flood. We also believe that rocks were created during the flood which was an event that happened at about 2345 BC. Most Intellectuals believe the dinosaurs are millions of years old. We believe Noah’s worldwide flood was real. Many M2C think it may have been a myth. We have shown in a laboratory that wood can be fossilized in 2 days not in millions of years. (See Universal Model by Dean Sessions).
Creationism: We believe Adam was the first man and Eve the first woman placed on this earth around 4,000 BC and the earth is only about 12,000 years old, but the material of the earth is billions of years old as matter cannot be created but has existed forever. Most intellectuals believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old as the consensus on google says. They also believe in cave men and men on earth before Adam.
Testimony: Most of the M2C theory are just as valiant as Heartlanders are in the Church and they are both trying to help others as good members of this Church. We just have different beliefs in some matters. Both sides should strive to love one another.
I realize I can’t put each of you into the box I have created with each definition above. We each have our own opinion on various issues and that is why it is important to listen to each other, study it our for ourselves, and then based on the spirit, develop our own witness of truth. I am thankful for free agency and I love listening to many differing opinions as it builds my knowledge base and helps me make more accurate decisions.
Personal Revelation
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is neutral when it comes to Book of Mormon Geography and many of the other subjects from my above list. We should learn and study the revelations and doctrine that the Prophet and Apostles teach us and the standard works. Remember we are told that we may know the truth of all things. We as members should gain our own personal revelation on the scriptures, and the doctrine and revelations of the Church, including the things that are not doctrinal, just as the Prophet says below:
“Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”
You don’t have to wonder about what is true. You do not have to wonder whom you can safely trust. Through personal revelation, you can receive your own witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that Joseph Smith is a prophet, and that this is the Lord’s Church. Regardless of what others may say or do, no one can ever take away a witness borne to your heart and mind about what is true.
I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.” Revelation for the Church, Revelation for Our Lives by President Russell M. Nelson
Different Apologists
M2C Apologists: They say they are neutral and open to hearing about other geographical theories of the Book of Mormon. I don’t believe they are neutral. The may vaguely listen to others, but they are staunch in the Mesoamerican belief. I believe they say they are neutral to stay in a supportive role with the Church.
John L. Sorenson a leader of the Mesoamerican Theory said, “There remain Latter-day Saints who insist that the final destruction of the Nephites took place in New York, but any such idea is manifestly absurd. Hundreds of thousands of Nephites traipsing across the Mississippi Valley to New York, pursued (why?) by hundreds of thousands of Lamanites, is a scenario worthy only of a witless sci-fi movie, not of history.” John L. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex (Deseret Book, 2013), p. 688.
Heartland Apologists: We love and support The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and we are mostly life long members in good standing. We are not neutral in our opinions about Book of Mormon Geography. We believe Book of Mormon events happened in the heartland of North America. The Book of Mormon is only a small percent of history and through marriage and migration we acknowledge there are other Lamanites that live outside of this Heartland, not spoken of in the Book of Mormon, including in the western United States, Canada and Central and South America.
Mesoamerica Two Cumorah Theory
M2C means, “Mesoamerica Two Cumorah Theory”, as defined by Jonathan Neville. In other words those who believe there are two Hill Cumorah’s, one in New York where Joseph deposited the plates, and a second Hill Cumorah somewhere in Mexico where the final battles of the Nephites and Lamanites took place. YES, they really believe this!
Why?
1. They need to justify that their theory has to have happened in Mesoamerica.
2. They insist the area around NY Cumorah is too small to be a place for such disaster.
3. They claim no bones, arrowheads, iron, copper and other artifacts have ever been found near the NY Cumorah. My Proof Here
4. They believe the Cave at Hill Cumorah that Joseph entered and saw wagon loads of plates was just a dream and didn’t really happen. Blog, Other Blog
5. They believe Moroni traveled over 3,500 miles to NY to bury the plates.
John L. Sorenson begins his Preface to Mormon’s Codex: An Ancient American Book, with these observations:
“This book presents a wide array of evidence that the Book of Mormon is an ancient historical record that could only have been produced by a writer who lived in Mesoamerica (southern Mexico and northern Central America) many centuries before Spanish explorers reached that area…. Numerous theories have, of course, been proposed to correlate Book of Mormon geography with the modern map of the Americas. None of these theories have been considered definitive by authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In chapters 2 and 7, I explain why I consider only one of those theories–involving a particular area in Mesoamerica–to escape the fatal flaws exhibited by all the others.”
I suspect most readers glide right over this sleight-of-hand rhetoric. The truth, though, is that Church authorities have always made a clear distinction between fact and theory regarding Book of Mormon geography.
Fact: The Hill Cumorah is in New York. This was established as a fact in Letter VII, written by President Oliver Cowdery who was an eye-witness to the depository of Nephite records in that hill (Mormon 6:6). Joseph Smith helped write these letters, had them copied into his personal history, and endorsed their republication for the rest of his life. The fact that Cumorah is in New York has been repeated many times by Church leaders, including by members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference. No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve has ever repudiated this teaching of his predecessors.
Theory: Church leaders have always said don’t know for sure the locations of other Book of Mormon events, so every proposed geography other than the New York Cumorah is necessarily a theory.
All of this means that, starting right from the outset, Mormon’s Codex is propaganda, not scholarship…
Brother Sorensen also says, “There remain Latter-day Saints who insist that the final destruction of the Nephites took place in New York, but any such idea is manifestly absurd. Hundreds of thousands of Nephites traipsing across the Mississippi Valley to New York, pursued (why?) by hundred of thousands of Lamanites, is a scenario worthy only of a witless sci-fi movie, not of history.” Mormon’s Codex, p. 688…
The treatment of Cumorah in Mormon’s Codex is an illusion of scholarship, as you’ll see if you read it carefully. Here are some examples:
“In the final stage of their retreat, all the identifiable Nephites assembled near the hill Cumorah, probably Cerro El Vigia in south-central Veracruz…. 
When all the remaining Nephites were ‘gathered in,’ the numerically superior Lamanite horde waged battle. In a single day they exterminated all 23 units of the defenders (each nominally of 10,000 men)….
Finally, the hill where the end came for the Jaredites, who called it Ramah, and the location of the last battle of the Nephites at the same hill (they called it Cumorah), have a highly likely correspondence to Cerro El Vigia (see fig. 7.2), an outlier on the northwest of the Tuxtla Mountains. In overall location and in a dozen other features, the textual information in the Book of Mormon agrees with the geographical situation. 72″
In classic M2C citation cartel fashion, Footnote 72 (page 142) cites David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah (Bountiful, UT: Horizon Publishers, 1992). Brother Palmer, of course, encouraged Brother Sorenson to write his books…
Brother Palmer is the one who wrote the self-serving entry on Cumorah in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism that cites only his own book for authority, again in classic M2C citation cartel fashion. You can read my discussions of his book if you search for “David Palmer” on this blog. Brother Palmer cites the anonymous articles in the Times and Seasons for authority, while ignoring the teachings of the prophets entirely, except for a brief dismissal of Letter VII, which he doesn’t even quote.
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As you go through the “criteria” for Cumorah set forth in Mormon’s Codex and In Search of Cumorah, you’ll see that the criteria are derived not from the text but from the assumed Mesoamerican setting. There must be volcanoes, for example, which Mormon and Moroni forgot to mention but which Brothers Sorenson and Palmer thoughtfully provide.
As I noted at the outset, once you recognize that Mormon’s Codex is a long-winded justification for repudiating the prophets, you see the logical fallacies and circular reasoning throughout.
To be clear, I do not reject the Mesoamerican setting and I won’t until it has not been rejected by the prophets. However, I think it is implausible, given the New York Cumorah. I think the evidence from ancient North America aligns far better with the text of the Book of Mormon than the evidence from Mesoamerica, Baja, Panama, etc.
For me, the distinction between fact and theory, between the New York Cumorah and everything else, is so well established by the prophets that it is inexcusable to censor, let alone repudiate, the teachings of the prophets…
It’s a side benefit that the fact of the New York Cumorah is so well supported by available archaeology, anthropology, geography, and geology. Mormon’s Codex is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.” Jonathan Neville Illusion of scholarship – Mormon’s Codex part 3
“Sorenson’s analysis of Alma 22 seems to be influenced by the Times and Seasons article published on 1 October 1842, which declares that the Nephite city of Zarahemla “stood upon” “Central America or Guatimala [sic].” Sorenson cites this passage from the Times and Seasons, although he recognizes the “fact that the geography question had not been settled authoritatively.”[1] In Mormon’s Codex, Sorenson relegates the Times and Seasons articles to a footnote in support of his unequivocal conclusion: “Joseph Smith became convinced in the last years of his life that the lands of the Nephites were in Mesoamerica.”[1]
Sorenson’s assumptions about Central America lead him to a preconceived concept of Book of Mormon geography; i.e., a narrow neck of land between two larger land masses. Perhaps he felt somewhat bound by the Times and Seasons articles and his inference that Joseph Smith agreed with them. As such, Sorenson’s work could be viewed as an effort to vindicate the Prophet’s words.” Moroni’s America by Jonathan Neville pages 26-28
You Choose-
BYU Fantasy Map?
Heartland Model Map?
Follow the entire Nephite Time-line of how the Book of Mormon began in Jerusalem and then continued in Florida to Tennessee to Missouri, Illinois, Ohio and ended in New York, the same pattern as the ancient Hopewell culture. Here is that time-line article:
