Meso vs Heartland- Which makes the most sense?
In the Book of Mormon there is no mention of Jaguar’s, Jade, and Volcanoes which the Mesoamericanists talk about all the time. There are no lambs, goats, rams, bullocks, wine, wheat or barley to practice the Law of Moses in Mesoamerica. We also hear of Earthquakes and Whirlwinds in the Book of Mormon which to me are defined like a Tornado. There are very few Tornados in Mesoamerica and the Heartland of America is called Tornado Alley. See map below.
There are no large beasts that migrate in Mesoamerica [monkeys? llama’s? jaguars?], but in the Heartland of the United Stated there are Bison, Elk, Bear, and Moose which all migrate as is says in Ether 9:34, “And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all.”
By the way is an earthquake and a volcano the same thing? No! The Book of Mormon speaks of earthquakes, not volcanoes. More to come below.
To me the Heartland JUST MAKES SENSE!
1970 Copies of the Book of Mormon
Many years ago in the copies of the Book of Mormon, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints included pictures of Mexico and various pyramids and statues. But, as you look at the picture left, you also see an old mammoth from Denver, Colorado. I served a mission in 1975 and those old blue books were full of Mesoamerica. I believe the historians and intellectuals were responsible for those theories. It has never been church doctrine about the location of the geography of the Book of Mormon, and today the Church is neutral on that subject. But, I am not neutral, I believe the Book of Mormon events began in the USA and the many remaining Lamanites have spread all over North and South America. That’s up to you to formulate your own opinion. Read all about “The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography” here.
Nephite Archaeology
Latter-day Saint Thomas Stuart Ferguson was the founder of BYU’s archaeology division (New World Archaeological Foundation). NWAF was financed by the LDS Church. NWAF and Ferguson were tasked by BYU and the Church in the 1950s and 1960s to find archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. After 17 years of diligent effort, this is what Ferguson wrote in a February 20, 1976 letter about trying to dig up evidence for the Book of Mormon: “…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere – because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archaeology. I should say — what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book.” Complete article here about Thomas Ferguson
That is a lot of hard word with no reward. I honestly feel if we spent that much money in all the archaeology in the USA among the Hopewell and Adena civilizations, we would have found a ton of evidence. today in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee, Pennsylvania and New York, museums are full of artifacts and pottery dating at the time of the Book of Mormon. Look up the words “Mounds in North America”, or “Hopewell Culture” and you will be amazed at the millions of items of evidence. I believe the Hopewell are the Nephites, and the Adena are the Jaredites.
“Thomas Ferguson was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon. In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in which he wrote: ‘I’m afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography.’ In a letter to Mr. & Mrs. H.W. Lawrence, dated Feb. 20, 1976, Thomas Stuart Ferguson plainly stated: ‘…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere – because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology.'” https://www.mormonwiki.org/Thomas_Stuart_Ferguson.html
Apologists Archaeology
Apologist FAIRLDS say, “There are two major models today, the Mesoamerican Model, and the Heartland Model. There are tons of other ideas, but those are the two largest camps right now. There’s been a lot of back and forth between the two camps over what exactly Joseph knew by revelation and what he was opining. The fact remains that no revelation on the location of Book of Mormon geography has ever been definitively given.”
Jonathan Neville said, “This is a red herring borrowed from L.E. Hills, who at least recognized what the prophets had taught. First, no one can say it’s “a fact” that “no revelation” about the setting has ever been definitively given. At most, we can say there is no canonized statement about the geography (although even that’s debatable).
To say there was no revelation on the topic assumes we have records of every revelation, but we don’t. Joseph and Oliver both mentioned revelations that they never recorded. Joseph gave around 200 sermons that no one wrote down. Joseph taught lots of things that he didn’t claim specific revelation for, including some of the sections of the D&C (such as D&C 128). We infer that, because he taught these things, they originated with revelation. And Oliver, as an apostle and Assistant President of the Church (meaning he was Joseph’s spokesman) declared it was a “fact” that the hill in New York was the setting for the final battles of the Jaredites and Nephites.
Furthermore, Lucy Mack Smith reported that Moroni identified the hill as Cumorah the first time he visited Joseph and that Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah ever since. Others affirmed that identification.
Notice the word thinking in this M2C [Mesoamerican Two Cumorah Theory] argument. Why would Joseph or Oliver have to claim revelation when they knew the location by personal experience? The restoration of the Priesthood and the keys were not “revelations.” They were experiences. Do we debate whether the Priesthood was restored because it was not a “revelation” or do we accept the report of the experience?
We have more details about the New York Cumorah than we do about the restoration of the Priesthood. We have a date and approximate location for John the Baptist, but neither for Peter, James and John. Yet Oliver Cowdery related details about the visits he and Joseph made to the repository of Nephite records in the Hill Cumorah, described in Mormon 6:6. David Whitmer affirmed that Oliver told him about that–but he denied knowing about the restoration of the Priesthood. ” Jonathan Neville Blog
FAIRLDS also said, “As far as things like the Zelph prophecies go, those weren’t published until after Joseph’s death, and all seven accounts contradict one another on various points. No one knows exactly what was said, especially since the word “Lamanite” seemed to mean “anyone of native, indigenous ancestry” to the early Saints.”
First, FAIRLDS complains that there was no revelation. When faced with an actual revelation, they parse it for inconsistencies instead of accepting the overall context and implications.
It’s not a question of publication, either. The accounts were recorded contemporaneously. This is one of the few instances where multiple people witnessed the revelation. Naturally they recorded it differently. In other situations, we take Wilford Woodruff’s words on their face because his is the only record. If we did that in this case, there wouldn’t be a debate.” Jonathan Neville.
Volcanoes
Again FAIRLDS says, “Take, for example, the Interpreter articles demonstrating the volcanic eruptions around the time of Christ’s crucifixion in Mesoamerica, as well as the drought and famine from Helaman 11, which has a direct correlation to a drought in Mesoamerica during the same time period. Those are evidences supporting the narrative of the Book of Mormon. They are not direct proof.” FAIRLDS
FAIRLDS quoting the Interpreter is demonstrating the Potemkin village nature of the citation cartel. [In politics and economics, a Potemkin village is any construction (literal or figurative) whose sole purpose is to provide an external façade to a country that is faring poorly, making people believe that the country is faring better.] FAIRLDS, the Interpreter, Book of Mormon Central, BYU Studies, etc., are all storefronts for the same M2C/SITH mindset. They have interlocking management and contributors who have worked closely together for years to enforce M2C/SITH assiduously. [Stone in the Hat]
The volcano evidence is a perfect example. The Book of Mormon, despite 1,000 years of history in (allegedly) Mesoamerica, never once mentions volcanoes. The destruction in 3 Nephi is not volcanic, nor are there any other instances of volcanic action. Yet the citation cartel keeps insisting there really were volcanoes in there somewhere, if you read between the lines. What they’re citing is evidence of their M2C theory, not evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
New Madrid Earthquake
“And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land. And there began to be great doubtings and disputations among the people, notwithstanding so many signs had been given. And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land. And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder. And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land. And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.” 3 Nephi 8:3-8
Think about this. What great city in Israel was the capital and it was destroyed? (Jerusalem). What great city in North America was the capital and was destroyed? (Zarahemla, Montrose, Iowa?). What is the great city of the last days? (New Jerusalem, Jackson County, MO). An interesting statement that should be familiar to you. “Consistent with this word usage, it is reported that Brigham Young often said that when the Saints returned to Jackson County, Missouri, there would not be as much as a “yellow dog [a persecuting gentile settler] to wag his tail” (see J. Golden Kimball address in Conference Report, [October 1930]: 59). This quote may refer to past or present events however.
In the year 1811 did people in Missouri and the United States “look with great earnestness for the sign”? Yes! Today as I sit here in Bountiful, Utah have I ever “looked with great earnestness for the sign?” Yes! The Nephites of old had many signs that Christ was coming and they did not properly prepare.
I feel it was a witness to us all that just after the (1811 earthquake) a Prophet of God was born (Joseph Smith), A huge sign was given in the Promised Land just before the Lord Jesus Christ visited the earth to Joseph in 1820.
What other signs are there today that tell us that the Son of God is soon to return? Are we excited for the day or are we afraid of the day? I have heard it said that “fear and faith are not compatible” I think we can learn much from the 1811 earthquake and many other signs to prepare us.
Could the very place called New Madrid, Missouri, be close to the same place that the Savior will appear to us when He comes? No one knows, but we should prepare. Could the earthquakes spoken of in the Book of Mormon be very similar to the New Madrid 1811 earthquake? Yes! Not Volcanoes, Earthquakes. Huge difference.
The Earthquakes of 1811-12
“400 terrified residents in the town of New Madrid, Missouri were abruptly awakened by violent shaking and a tremendous roar. It was December 16, 1811, and it was the first of at least three very large (M7 or greater) earthquakes and thousands of aftershocks to rock the region that winter, with the last occurring on February 7, 1812.
Survivors reported that the earthquakes caused cracks to open in the earth’s surface, the ground to roll in visible waves, and large areas of land to sink or rise. The crew of the New Orleans (the first steamboat on the Mississippi, which was on her maiden voyage) reported mooring to an island only to awake in the morning and find that the island had disappeared below the waters of the Mississippi River. Damage was reported as far away as Charleston, South Carolina, and Washington, D.C.” Central U.S. Earthquake Consortium Memphis, Tennessee Read the entire article here
Whirlwinds
“John Sorenson’s questions about snow and cold were addressed in the very first presentations. Apparently he again has not taken the necessary time to familiarize himself with the Heartland research. If he disagrees with the explanations that have been provided, he has provided no mention of why he disagrees, nor provided evidence refuting it. Having read several of Sorenson’s works, I know him to be very articulate in his research involving things he is interested in. A concern is that Sorenson is either disinterested in this proposed model or so confident in his own theory that he makes claims without attempting to ascertain the facts or review the information. Information regarding weather and climate can be at the blog here or here.
The mention of snow and hail in the Book of Mormon occurs three times, whereas the mention of “the heat of the day” is mentioned only once, and cannot be construed as evidence requiring a tropical climate. Nowhere in the Book of Mormon are monkeys, palm trees, coconuts or jungles mentioned. Weather was apparently not high on the priority list for recording on the sacred records by the ancient prophets who were charged with keeping them. Still, there are indicators of climate such as the fact that there were “seasons of the year” and that this was the “nature of the climate” (Alma 46:40) which would seem to favor a North American setting rather than a Mesoamerican setting because there is little difference between the warm rainy season and the warm dry seasons in Mesoamerica in comparison with winter and summer in North America. Also indicators such as whirlwinds in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 8:12, 16) which are most likely referencing significant tornadoes, don’t occur in Mesoamerica, whereas North America’s heartland is known as tornado alley.
Quotation from CES Letter
“Archaeology: There is absolutely no archaeological evidence to directly support the Book of Mormon or the Nephites and Lamanites, who were supposed to have numbered in the millions. This is one of the reasons why unofficial apologists have developed the Limited Geography Model (it happened in Central or South America) and claim that the Hill Cumorah mentioned as the final battle of the Nephites is not in Palmyra, New York but is elsewhere. This is in direct contradiction to what Joseph Smith and other prophets have taught. It also makes little sense in light of the Church’s visitor’s center near the Hill Cumorah in New York and the annual Church-sponsored Hill Cumorah pageants.” CES Letter. [CES Letter is one Latter-day Saint’s honest quest to get official answers from the LDS Church on its troubling origins, history, and practices. Jeremy Runnells was offered an opportunity to discuss his own doubts with a director of the Church Educational System (CES) and was assured that his doubts could be resolved. After reading Jeremy’s letter, the director promised him a response. No response ever came.]
Here at Book of Mormon Evidence, and FIRM Foundation, with a lot of help from Jonathan Neville, we continue to try and answer this CES Letter. Jeremy Runnells asked many difficult questions that this CES director was just not the one to answer them. Our Church Leaders of course share with us doctrine, and the historians share researched opinion, but some of the answers Jeremy wanted were apologetic type questions such as, the age of dinosaurs, belief in evolution, method of translation and geography of the Book of Mormon. Our church leaders should teach doctrine as it is up to each of us individually to seek non-doctrinal answers on our own, followed with a lot of prayer. These are all questions we at FIRM Foundation strives to answer for you with the best information we can discover and research, and those that make sense. We each need to read and pray on our own for all answers in which the Lord has not reveled. Just keep looking as Moroni says, “we may know the truth of all things'” Keep searching.
The Geography Bible of Mesoamericanists
FAIR LDS loves John Sorensen’s book titled “Mormons Codex”, as they say, “as far as the New World evidences go, John Sorenson wrote an 850-page book detailing all of the evidence he’d personally compiled, with approximately 400 correlations between the Mesoamerican peoples and the peoples of the Book of Mormon.” FAIR LDS
Jonathan Neville responded and said, “It’s funny, I’ve had people cite me this book based on its size and weight as well, as if that matters in the least. Sorenson is an awesome guy, smart and faithful, etc., but Mormon’s Codex is an exercise in blatant bias confirmation. Much of it involves the “Sorenson translation” of the text, where he inserts his own opinions about what the text means or should have said to correspond with Mayan culture and geography. I don’t have to ask Michael Coe for all the reasons why the Book of Mormon doesn’t fit Mesoamerica; all I have to do is read the text and observe the absence of jungles, jaguars and jade, not to mention pyramids and Mayans. Then, like everyone else, I can read Mormon’s Codex and see the semantic gyrations Sorenson resorted to (e.g., his “narrow neck”) to cram the Nephites into Mayan society. And, of course, Mormon’s Codex contains the infamous passage in which Sorenson ridicules the prophets who have taught the New York Cumorah.” Jonathan Neville Blog
Christ Visited the Nephites in the Land of Promise in North America
FAIRLDS asks the question, “Question: Does the Book of Mormon fit best in a geography located around the Great Lakes, between the United States and Canada? Unfortunately, the geographical details of the Book of Mormon do not fit terribly well in models presented thus far.” FAIR LDS
I love the readers of this blog to have as much information as I can share with them. Both sides of research about the Book of Mormon geography have value. I invite you to read FAIR LDS and others as you may not realize there are many wonderful people that have also known about a geography in North America that I mention below.
A good friend of Rod Meldrum’s and Wayne May’s, Delbert Curtis proposed a limited geography around the Great Lakes region of North America in about 1993. His narrow neck of land lies between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. He states his position as follows:
“The geography of the Book of Mormon was not important to the author until the Ensign printed an article suggesting there were two hills named Cumorah. That suggestion caused the author to become engrossed in the geography of the Book of Mormon. The author had never been able to believe a loving God would promise Nephi North America and land him thousands of miles from that land, or that the Nephites could have lived in Mesoamerica and died in New York State.
Search the History and Standard Works of the Church
Rather than looking to the works of man, the author [Curtis] searched the history and standard works of the church. To this was added the landmarks near and to the west of the Hill Cumorah as the source of information. All questions were answered, and each confusing passage become [sic] clear. All the landmarks in the area prove the Hill Cumorah in New York is the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon. [Thus] the history and standard works of the church, along with the landmarks near the Hill Cumorah, offer proof positive that the Hill Cumorah in New York State, was and is the Cumorah of the Book of Mormon. . . . The invention of a second Hill Cumorah creates far more questions than it answers.” (Front cover & Back cover). Delbert W. Curtis “Christ in North America: Christ Visited the Nephites in the Land of Promise in North America”, Resource Communications, 1993.
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